Random destinies

[Cagliostro]

Y'know, I've never thought of the life extension program as a precursor to the fall of civilization, but I honestly see your point. What irony. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time someone came up with some world changing idea only to see it completely blow up in their face.

[Avatar]

And surely not the last either.

--A

[rusmeister]

Ouch!

Heh.

Anyway, the fact that the priest sees greater meaning doesn't make it so. Now, if you had evidence...

Hey, F+F! You have all the 'evidence' you are going to get.
Now you have to 'make up your own damn mind' - and while I can see that 'Agent Smith' has, for you it is not yet a closed book.

I'll go with faith and hope over a rational conviction of hopelessness any day. Morpheus over Commander Locke!!! (Locke was almost right... but not.)

[Avatar]

I'd rather expect the worst...maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. Just can't do the faith thing...the evidence is insufficient.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

I'll go with faith and hope over a rational conviction of hopelessness any day.

Hopelessness is not any part of my beliefs. Not having any religious beliefs does not equate with hopelessness.

Nor does it equate with indifference. I'm sure there are scientists who feel deeply for people on deathbeds, and priests who don't. Neither side of this debate has exclusive claim to such things.

[Avatar]

Good post. I wouldn't call my outlook hopeless...quite the reverse...I'm rather optimistic...perhaps because I know (well, I suspect anyway), that none of it really matters.

--A

[rusmeister]

I'll go with faith and hope over a rational conviction of hopelessness any day.

Hopelessness is not any part of my beliefs. Not having any religious beliefs does not equate with hopelessness.

Nor does it equate with indifference. I'm sure there are scientists who feel deeply for people on deathbeds, and priests who don't. Neither side of this debate has exclusive claim to such things.

I wasn't speaking of exclusive claim. However, you must admit that it is much more the 'job' of the priest to have compassion as it is the guiding principle of his calling - whereas the guiding principle for the scientist must be the development of learning.

Hopelessness is the end run of the belief that this life is all there is. That's what I was trying to say. Granted that you might have beliefs that really offer you hope.

But the practical effect for a person who says, I don't know what's going to happen after death, I'll just wait and see" is inaction/living by the laws of this world, even if they are "open" to new ideas. As there is no satisfactory response to the meaning of our lives, except for ones that we invent, which all come to nothing one way or another after our death, be it one generation or a millennium after, we are back to square one - which IS hopelessness. Again, you may hold a more solid belief that that - but I am speaking about agnosticism and atheism in general - their final conclusion is hopelessness. Such people always smuggle in ideas like, "the world will go on..." But the point is,for the individual, precisely that it does NOT go on, and even the weak consolation of being remembered for a century or two fades into meaninglessness as far as the individual is concerned. All that I am, have become, learned, etc, must be undone, unlearned, dust. Different, OTHER, people must start all over again. Ultimately, there is no true advancement, as advancement in one area is compensated by degradation in another. People are born, pick and choose what they believe and who they learn from, and die. In the end, these scientists, priests of the faith we call "Science", tell us that the universe is winding down, that even stars die, and that all will come to naught. If we could stand at that point where it does and not cry out for a meaning that transcends one that we could invent, then would we really be human?

[The Dreaming]

Why did we evolve with a strict time limit? I think there are several reasons. Primarily though there is an intense need to have a dynamic, as opposed to static gene pool. We need to keep recombining and re splicing our genetic material to assure that we can respond to environmental change fast enough.

I tend to feel that a static civilization (as an immortal, unbreeding would would *have* to be) is a dead civilization. Can you imagine a civilization where politicians, kings, presidents, and prime ministers can stay in power forever? That's Holt F@*#ing Fasner! Can a civilization with no youth ever grow and adapt? Through inherited knowledge we have obtained mastery over biology, but will there be new knowledge in a civilization filled with the old? My grandmother can barely use an answering machine, is she going to be able to design software? Or even be a consumer of new technologies?

Mortality is one of the single most important things humanity has. Jeopardizing it may be catastrophic unless we are able to properly deal with the consequences of that power. (Unlike Odin and Valhalla.)

[Loredoctor]

I have more hope since becoming an atheist. I'm more at peace and life is far more fulfilling. Not believing in God and an afterlife is so much more engaging for my life than fantasising in some mythical being and existence.

[Fist and Faith]

rus,

I do not expect anything but oblivion when I die. "Hopelessness" is a judgement (a negative one) of that expectation, but that judgement does not apply to me. I do not hope for an afterlife, so it is not hopeless.

We can judge either of our expectations. You expect whatever specific afterlife you believe will come. To my mind, that expectation is hopeless. No end to my personal identity?!? You mean I must continue on forever?!? If I die and find out that's the case, I'm gonna have some words with somebody!

It's all an optomist/pessimist thing. And we disagree on which of us is which, eh?

Your expectations on how life must be viewed if oblivion is the expected end is also a judgement. And, again, a negative one. Here's the flip-side, as seen on the TV show Angel:

Kate: "I feel like such an idiot."

Angel: "A lot of that going around."

Kate: "I just couldn't... My whole life has been about being a cop. If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything."

Angel: "It doesn't."

Kate: "Doesn't what?"

Angel: "Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."

Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."

Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward. Finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."

Kate: "And now you do?"

Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

And, of course, there's the fact that if I did have serious feelings of hopeless about what I believe to be the nature of my existence, that wouldn't be a reason to believe things were otherwise. It would be a case of, "Tough luck. This is the way it is. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that's not the way it it." I'd still need evidence to believe other than I believe.

[Zarathustra]

Here's the flip-side, as seen on the TV show Angel:

Kate: "I feel like such an idiot."

Angel: "A lot of that going around."

Kate: "I just couldn't... My whole life has been about being a cop. If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything."

Angel: "It doesn't."

Kate: "Doesn't what?"

Angel: "Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."

Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."

Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward. Finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."

Kate: "And now you do?"

Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

Reminds me of Foamfollower's answer to the question of hope.

[Ki]

I have more hope since becoming an atheist. I'm more at peace and life is far more fulfilling. Not believing in God and an afterlife is so much more engaging for my life than fantasising in some mythical being and existence.

Nicely put.

[Avatar]

...if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.

Amen brother!

--A

[lurch]

...on that point of .." what we do"...a slite shift of the concept to...what we create. ...Creating a Future as an individual..can be seen or understood as The number one responsibility of an individual. From what,,does an individual create? How does one create? Is an individual constricted by what it creates? These are some basic questions the logical mind asks but the answers are not in the Logical realm.

Consider, From what does one create? Cag's point of " blowing up in ones face" points out the consequences of putting all faith of the future into the Logical, Scientific , ways of creating. As one put it,, the history of Man appears to be long periods of War with short intermittent outbreaks of Peace. One can argue that is our nature, but with the scientific developments of the last 100 years, one can see that Man now has created the ability to annihilate all of nature. So, from what we create, the nature of it, suggests a change is needed.

Imagination is is just the label for the infinite undiscovered...the future waiting to be created from. How we create from this Imagination,,has everything to do with How we " think" and perceive. " Thinking" as defined as " logic ,, " Reason"..has what history? See the above paragraph. Yes, many boons to mankind can be said to have come from the " Logical, Scientific process,,but the conceit there is that Science, Logic, are the only way to the discoveries. The primitive , native Indians of the Amazon know which plants cure and help with which maladies. Modern Man is in a Big Hurry to get down there and record this Knowledge before He wipes out the holders of this knowledge...So much for Logic and Science being the only holders of Mans Future.

How we create from what we individually discover in the infinite Imagination, depends on How free we are to create. There are whole schools of Montessiorial schools that have a students access to their Imagination as one of many underlying goals. How unencumbered we are by Process and Reason determines the degree of Freedom of access and perhaps how much open ended Love, uuumm Gods Love,,an individual " feels" has much to do with How an Individual Creates from what is discovered.

Of course not everything discovered or even created, does an Individual hang onto. But what an Individual creates and does keep.. becomes the Individual.Thus the Individual " creates" its future, creates Its Self. No. we are not all Mozarts, Shakespearres, Da Vinci's, or Einstiens,,but we All have the ability to find our personal Potential and create from it and become Who We Are.

So the question of,,destiny..can be viewed as..something nurtured from the womb on. Accept that the future is unknown, but is created. The perception of an individual being taken out before its Time,,falls to the way side,,if the Individual is or has been steadily in the process of creating its future, Who He or She Is. Time becomes irrelevant.

[Harbinger]

The randomness began long before your parents got horny and a strong swimmer found an egg. I do not believe in destiny or any sort of predetermined outcome. What we are is the sum of our experiences. We have the ability to determine our own destiny and to define ourselves in any way we choose. But no choice is still a choice. The first thing you must do is decide what it is you want to accomplish. Then, you gotta make a plan to achieve that and execute it. Many people want to accomplish something greater in their life, but it is very easy to be complacent if your water, food, shelter and safety needs are easily met. For the vast majority of the history of man, life was (and still is for many) hard just from the necessity of survival. That gave people a strong daily goal- eat/ provide for family. Like wild animals, most of people's time was spent acquiring sustenance. And they felt a sense of accomplishment when these needs were met. Modern civilization and barter/ monetary systems gave some people the ability to spend time doing things other than trying to stay alive. Now, most of us in the Tank take a hot meal for granted. Many are searching for some meaning in life primarily because their survival needs are so easily met. Again I say that you must decide what you want to accomplish, make a plan, and execute it. Reward yourself for your effort more than for your success. Your life is only as rich and full as you allow it to be, and your day to day thoughts- positive or negative will influence your satisfaction level more than any one other factor.

In our society, most people don't seize what they want. They fall into something and it provides enough for them, but they have TV and they see other things and they want more. Who really aspires to be a factory worker? In some communities, it's the best paying job that people have easy access to. And some of them pay damn well. Instead of stalking game or foraging, you put in some time to get a check. Most of us want more money than we have so we can live differently, but we have most of what we need already. You could live in poverty, work two full-time jobs and retire in ten or fifteen years if you wanted to. But there are things like movies, restaurants, and bass boats that make life more enjoyable.

The idea of an afterlife, particularly one spent in glory of something (I mean come on, even the glory of an endless supply of Playboy Bunnies would get boring) does not appeal to me at all. I'm 39, and I figure I've got 12 to 15 pretty good years left if I take care of myself. Not that I expect the twilight of my life to be unsatisfying, but I think I can retain the majority of my power and virility for a little while longer yet. You only get to make so many trips around the sun. I hope that I die satisfied with what I have accomplished.

[lurch]

" (I mean come on, even the glory of an endless supply of Playboy Bunnies would get boring) "

that reminds me of the joke...

Did ya hear that there is now a Playboy magazine for married guys ?

No! Really?

Yea!,,every new issue has the same Playmate!..

[rusmeister]

I have more hope since becoming an atheist. I'm more at peace and life is far more fulfilling. Not believing in God and an afterlife is so much more engaging for my life than fantasising in some mythical being and existence.

Hey Loremaster!
I have nothing to say about your hopes for your life - mine are all about your hope (or lack thereof) concerning your death and what follows - or the meaninglessness of having nothing follow.

[rusmeister]

F+F posted:

if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.

...if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.

Amen brother!

--A

This is a mega-non-sequitur if I ever saw one. Sounds good, but is logically meaningless.

Also, if there is no one to understand meaning, then the 'meaning' is no meaning.

I'm saying something pretty simple. If life has no meaning beyond the life itself, then it has, in all essence, no meaning. If it has no meaning, there is no point to your life. If there is no point to your life, your life is hopeless. It. Doesn't. Matter. The point of your death is the measuring stick. Hope is based on meaning.

[Fist and Faith]

Just trying to make sure you understand, rus. Our point is that the expectation that nothing will follow life does not make life meaningless. In my view, it makes life more meaningful, since it's all there is. What I do throughout my life is important for my life.

There's also the possibility that, if I'm lucky, I'll have a positive impact on those who are alive long after I'm gone. My children never knew my grandmother. But her influence on me has a good deal to do with my influence on them. Her life was not meaningless, even though they never knew her.

But heck, I could be a hermit, never having the slightest contact with anyone in the world, and that doesn't mean my life would have no meaning to me.

The point being, I don't consider life to be a trial run, or a proving ground, and I don't expect to be able to use anything I've learned while alive in any afterlife. I believe this life is all there is, and its meaning is largely based on that. The meanings we believe our lives have are immensely different, and I'm not trying to convince you that mine is better than yours. I'm just trying to show you another point of view.

[Harbinger]

I'm saying something pretty simple. If life has no meaning beyond the life itself, then it has, in all essence, no meaning.

Huh?

Remember in Revenge of the Nerds when Ogre was high with the nerds as they were discussing life and the universe he submitted "what if d-o-g actually spelled cat?"