Is Runes Flawed?
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Funky Staff of Law
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
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Another thing I am realizing as I read for the second time is that Runes of the Earth takes place over a much smaller time period than did The Wounded Land, or any other book in the first two chronicles.
This may not mean much, but it does effect the way I read the book this time around, and I am finding it less of a struggle and far more engrossing.
(Yes, even though I don't think the book is "flawed", I did find it hard to read the first time.)
Sum sui generis
Vs
This may not mean much, but it does effect the way I read the book this time around, and I am finding it less of a struggle and far more engrossing.
(Yes, even though I don't think the book is "flawed", I did find it hard to read the first time.)
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
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At the most, three days before the Horserite and three after. The Horserite itself is the only time where SRD skips forward as far as I remember.
Sum sui generis
Vs
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
WOW - you guys sure? I've read the ARC and am now listening to the CDs (22 1/2 hours!!) Feels like more time has past!!variol son wrote:At the most, three days before the Horserite and three after. The Horserite itself is the only time where SRD skips forward as far as I remember.
Sum sui generis
Vs
He/She who dies with the most toys wins! Wait a minute ... I can't die!!!
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
Ok, here goes.
Day one - Linden arrives on Kevin's Watch. Meets Anele. Gets captured by Stave. Is taken to Mithil Stowndown. Talks with Stave.
Day two - Linden wakes up in Mithil Stonedown (on the bed). Meets and talks with Liand. Escapes with Liand and Anele. Is attacked by kresh. Rescued by ur-viles. Is taken in by the Ramen. Meets Esmer. Chosen by Hyn.
Day three - Linden talks to Esmer and goes with Stave, Hyn and Hynyn into the south. Horserite.
TIME GAP AFTER HORSERITE
Day four - Linden rests in the morning. Has to leave early, as Esmer has summoned a caesure. Passes through caesure.
Day five - Linden recovers Staff of Law from waynhim in the past. Is attacked by the Demondim. Flees back to the present. Arrives at Revelstone.
Day six - Linden confronts the Masters. Stave reveals what the Ranyhyn said to him during the Horserite. Stave is cut off from the Haruchai. Covenant and Jeremiah are seen fleeing towards Revelstone.
So, even allowing for a couple of rest days here and there, you are looking at less than a fortnight, including the two days that Linden and Stave were gone from the Verge of Wondering at the Horserite.
That is a very short time period, even by SRD's standards. The only one of his novels that comes close to that is The Real Story, and it's about one tenth the size.
If the plot of Runes of the Earth had played out over the usual three months or so, then it would have been disappointing. However, Linden achieved everything in less than 14 days. That requires the book to be read differently in order to understand just how much tension is squeezed into such a small space.
Sum sui generis
Vs
Day one - Linden arrives on Kevin's Watch. Meets Anele. Gets captured by Stave. Is taken to Mithil Stowndown. Talks with Stave.
Day two - Linden wakes up in Mithil Stonedown (on the bed). Meets and talks with Liand. Escapes with Liand and Anele. Is attacked by kresh. Rescued by ur-viles. Is taken in by the Ramen. Meets Esmer. Chosen by Hyn.
Day three - Linden talks to Esmer and goes with Stave, Hyn and Hynyn into the south. Horserite.
TIME GAP AFTER HORSERITE
Day four - Linden rests in the morning. Has to leave early, as Esmer has summoned a caesure. Passes through caesure.
Day five - Linden recovers Staff of Law from waynhim in the past. Is attacked by the Demondim. Flees back to the present. Arrives at Revelstone.
Day six - Linden confronts the Masters. Stave reveals what the Ranyhyn said to him during the Horserite. Stave is cut off from the Haruchai. Covenant and Jeremiah are seen fleeing towards Revelstone.
So, even allowing for a couple of rest days here and there, you are looking at less than a fortnight, including the two days that Linden and Stave were gone from the Verge of Wondering at the Horserite.
That is a very short time period, even by SRD's standards. The only one of his novels that comes close to that is The Real Story, and it's about one tenth the size.
If the plot of Runes of the Earth had played out over the usual three months or so, then it would have been disappointing. However, Linden achieved everything in less than 14 days. That requires the book to be read differently in order to understand just how much tension is squeezed into such a small space.
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
Re: Another thing I am realizing as I read for the second time is that Runes of the Earth takes place over a much smaller time period than did The Wounded Land, or any other book in the first two chronicles.
There appears to be almost no "down time". Every day, almost every hour is chronicled, and the rare gaps (as durin gteh horsrite) are significant in themselves. Compare with, say, TOT, where days are spent at sea with not much happening.
There appears to be almost no "down time". Every day, almost every hour is chronicled, and the rare gaps (as durin gteh horsrite) are significant in themselves. Compare with, say, TOT, where days are spent at sea with not much happening.
This is extremely important. To all of the naysayers, and I don't invalidate their opinions, I really believe that they were expecting "more of the same". Well, we didn't get more of the same here, and we should be grateful. SRD has said, time and again in the GI, that he continuously seeks to grow as a writer. This is growth. While there are stops for explanations of old legends (an admitted attempt by SRD to make Runes readable for people who had never read Covenant - and in my Amazon review I applaud him greatly for that), there is, yet, constant movement.
He's also never given us a book before that raises so many interminable questions. He may be doing this intentionally and laughing at us, who knows?
We have ambiguous characters: Liand, the Mahdoubt, Anele, Esmer, Kassy, Joan, Roger, Jeremiah, even Foul and the Creator (who have never before been ambiguous in intention). When has this ever happened in a Covenant book before?
He's also never given us a book before that raises so many interminable questions. He may be doing this intentionally and laughing at us, who knows?
We have ambiguous characters: Liand, the Mahdoubt, Anele, Esmer, Kassy, Joan, Roger, Jeremiah, even Foul and the Creator (who have never before been ambiguous in intention). When has this ever happened in a Covenant book before?"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." (Anais Nin)
I have to say, I haven't read all of the posts on this thread (Who'd have thought the Covenant fans would be so verbose? Not I!). I did, however, read enough of them to want to respond to a couple of points made by those who were disappointed by ROTE. Apologies to any whose thoughts I am repeating.
I think that there is a misunderstanding involved about the goals Mr Donaldson may have as a storyteller at work here. To say that ROTE doesn't live up to the promise of the previous Chronicles, or that the fact that it's a "set-up" for the coming books doesn't excuse the differences, is to perhaps miss this crucial point.
Think about the structural differences between the first and Second Chronicles - most pointedly, in the way the story flowed.
"Lord Foul's Bane" is largely written to be a stand-alone book, and for very practical reasons. The most obvious of these was this - at the time it was written and published, no one knew whether or not the next two books would ever be seen, so it HAD to stand alone. The books that followed had to work a bit to establish the idea that the climax at the end of Foul were just a set up for a much more epic climax.
By contrast, when Donaldson wrote the Second Chronicles, he had the advantage of knowing that all of them would be published, as well as the Final Chronicles. This allowed him to pace the story much more naturally, as well as provide the hints and loose ends needed for the final story in the cycle.
I'm beginning to sound like an apologist, and it irks me, so I'll try a different tack:
I loved the first series in life-altering ways. (I loved the second, though not with the same fervor.) However, I always held in the back of my mind the idea that LFB would have been a very different book, had Donaldson known in advance that all three books would be published.
The Final Chronicles promise to be paced the way Donaldson would've paced the First, had he and his publisher known how successful LFB would be.
I should also say that I knew nothing about the Final Chronicles until an old friend -who was grinning like a self satisfied fiend- plunked ROTE on my drawing table, announced that he had read it, and that he would not discuss it with me until I had read it as well. (I promptly threw him out, and began reading.) I say this partially as confession (bad fan! naughty fan!), and partially because I think it allowed me to read with fewer preconceptions than I would if I had been anticipating, and discussing, all of the things I thought should happen in the story. Instead, I was able to read the book with fresh eyes, and have appropriate reactions to the story ("Ohh. So that's why...", "HOLY CRAP! What is he DOING?!") instead of reading the whole book waiting for, say, the Giants to return "unexpectedly".
Reading in this manner provided me with three important -to this discussion- reactions.
The first - I began hoping that this was a four book series as soon as Linden realised that she wasn't going to be summoned by the Beggar. I came to this site to happily verify that my suspicions were correct.
The second - It allowed me to be at least as horrified at the ramifications of Covenant's return - and Jerimiah's arrival - as I was joyous to see the old bastard again.
The third (and most relevant to this discussion) - I immediately began wondering if I could survive the years it will take 'till the next book.
Isn't that the mark of a successful story - and storyteller?
I think that there is a misunderstanding involved about the goals Mr Donaldson may have as a storyteller at work here. To say that ROTE doesn't live up to the promise of the previous Chronicles, or that the fact that it's a "set-up" for the coming books doesn't excuse the differences, is to perhaps miss this crucial point.
Think about the structural differences between the first and Second Chronicles - most pointedly, in the way the story flowed.
"Lord Foul's Bane" is largely written to be a stand-alone book, and for very practical reasons. The most obvious of these was this - at the time it was written and published, no one knew whether or not the next two books would ever be seen, so it HAD to stand alone. The books that followed had to work a bit to establish the idea that the climax at the end of Foul were just a set up for a much more epic climax.
By contrast, when Donaldson wrote the Second Chronicles, he had the advantage of knowing that all of them would be published, as well as the Final Chronicles. This allowed him to pace the story much more naturally, as well as provide the hints and loose ends needed for the final story in the cycle.
I'm beginning to sound like an apologist, and it irks me, so I'll try a different tack:
I loved the first series in life-altering ways. (I loved the second, though not with the same fervor.) However, I always held in the back of my mind the idea that LFB would have been a very different book, had Donaldson known in advance that all three books would be published.
The Final Chronicles promise to be paced the way Donaldson would've paced the First, had he and his publisher known how successful LFB would be.
I should also say that I knew nothing about the Final Chronicles until an old friend -who was grinning like a self satisfied fiend- plunked ROTE on my drawing table, announced that he had read it, and that he would not discuss it with me until I had read it as well. (I promptly threw him out, and began reading.) I say this partially as confession (bad fan! naughty fan!), and partially because I think it allowed me to read with fewer preconceptions than I would if I had been anticipating, and discussing, all of the things I thought should happen in the story. Instead, I was able to read the book with fresh eyes, and have appropriate reactions to the story ("Ohh. So that's why...", "HOLY CRAP! What is he DOING?!") instead of reading the whole book waiting for, say, the Giants to return "unexpectedly".
Reading in this manner provided me with three important -to this discussion- reactions.
The first - I began hoping that this was a four book series as soon as Linden realised that she wasn't going to be summoned by the Beggar. I came to this site to happily verify that my suspicions were correct.
The second - It allowed me to be at least as horrified at the ramifications of Covenant's return - and Jerimiah's arrival - as I was joyous to see the old bastard again.
The third (and most relevant to this discussion) - I immediately began wondering if I could survive the years it will take 'till the next book.
Isn't that the mark of a successful story - and storyteller?
Nothing wrong with being an apologist, in certain instances. I think that it's only a four letter word for elitist snobs.
Anyway, I think your last comment was right on track. It most absolutely IS the mark of a master storyteller.
Anyway, I think your last comment was right on track. It most absolutely IS the mark of a master storyteller.
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." (Anais Nin)
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
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Excellent point there! SRD has said that he considers The Gap to be his crowning achievement so far, and so the fact Runes of the Earth resembles it in terms of a shorter time span and a more subtle and suggestive plot building is hardly surprising.burgs66 wrote:This is extremely important. To all of the naysayers, and I don't invalidate their opinions, I really believe that they were expecting "more of the same". Well, we didn't get more of the same here, and we should be grateful. SRD has said, time and again in the GI, that he continuously seeks to grow as a writer. This is growth. While there are stops for explanations of old legends (an admitted attempt by SRD to make Runes readable for people who had never read Covenant - and in my Amazon review I applaud him greatly for that), there is, yet, constant movement.
PS - In reading, I have found that there may be four days before the Horserite, not three.
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
-
finn
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....
Still only halfway through the book, but read above with interest and would like to comment on two of the points/criticisms raised.
I think that there had to be a connection to Covenants lawyer to link the care for Joan, Roger, Jeremiah, Joans ring, the maimings and thus the base cause for being in the dell and being transported to the land. Without access to the lawyer, LA would have been a bystander in events where she needed to be involved.
Someone queried the need to do a much longer intro and I agree, I found it a bit frustrating in some ways having the story constantly interrupted to teach me things about the land that I've known from the other series.
In series#1 Covenant gets educated on route to Revelstone and beyond; he learns about the Land whilst traversing it. In series#2 Linden gets her history from Covenant, Hollian and Sunder whilst traversing the land and both her and Covenant get a new perspective of how the land is wounded. But in Runes, Linden has already got much of the Historical knowledge we have and her knowledge of the current situation in the Land is being deliberately hampered by the Haruchai, Anele's madness and Liand's ignorance. I think this is why the book picks up pace after the Ramen appear.
It may have been better to have travelled more and further afield, but I get the feeling that Donaldson has kept this localised for a reason, like a suspended musical chord. Nonetheless it is nice to revisit and I get the feeling that the scope of this series will encompass all players past and present, I expect to see Bannor, Foamfollower, Elena, Mhoram, Nom (or if the story so far is anything to go on, Noms son!), Kevin, Berek, Brin et al.
One thing worries me though if this series is going to take 9 years, thats about 6000 years in the land!
I think that there had to be a connection to Covenants lawyer to link the care for Joan, Roger, Jeremiah, Joans ring, the maimings and thus the base cause for being in the dell and being transported to the land. Without access to the lawyer, LA would have been a bystander in events where she needed to be involved.
Someone queried the need to do a much longer intro and I agree, I found it a bit frustrating in some ways having the story constantly interrupted to teach me things about the land that I've known from the other series.
In series#1 Covenant gets educated on route to Revelstone and beyond; he learns about the Land whilst traversing it. In series#2 Linden gets her history from Covenant, Hollian and Sunder whilst traversing the land and both her and Covenant get a new perspective of how the land is wounded. But in Runes, Linden has already got much of the Historical knowledge we have and her knowledge of the current situation in the Land is being deliberately hampered by the Haruchai, Anele's madness and Liand's ignorance. I think this is why the book picks up pace after the Ramen appear.
It may have been better to have travelled more and further afield, but I get the feeling that Donaldson has kept this localised for a reason, like a suspended musical chord. Nonetheless it is nice to revisit and I get the feeling that the scope of this series will encompass all players past and present, I expect to see Bannor, Foamfollower, Elena, Mhoram, Nom (or if the story so far is anything to go on, Noms son!), Kevin, Berek, Brin et al.
One thing worries me though if this series is going to take 9 years, thats about 6000 years in the land!
How many days did TWL take up until the Soothtell?
At least 27 days:
One day in the real world
Then through the 3 day Sunbane phases:
Desert (Escape from Mithil Stonedown; Covenant wounded by Marid)
Fertility (journeying)
Rain (river journey)
Pestilence (Bee venom; Holian rescued)
Fertility (TC into Andelain; the others captured)
Desert (TC at Stonemight Woodhelven; encounter with Lena's ghost etc.)
??? (TC unconscious with the Waynyhim; can't recall the Sun)
Desert (Bloodspeed)
Fertility (TC journeying with Memla)
Rain (TC at Revelstone - two day sun)
At least 27 days:
One day in the real world
Then through the 3 day Sunbane phases:
Desert (Escape from Mithil Stonedown; Covenant wounded by Marid)
Fertility (journeying)
Rain (river journey)
Pestilence (Bee venom; Holian rescued)
Fertility (TC into Andelain; the others captured)
Desert (TC at Stonemight Woodhelven; encounter with Lena's ghost etc.)
??? (TC unconscious with the Waynyhim; can't recall the Sun)
Desert (Bloodspeed)
Fertility (TC journeying with Memla)
Rain (TC at Revelstone - two day sun)