I just watched ROTS

[matrixman]

I finally saw the film yesterday and I was very, very impressed! This is a great Star Wars movie. For those of us who haven't read the novelization, it's nice of Fist & Faith to provide such generous quotes. The book must be quite a good read, going by the quality of the writing in the excerpts. The description of Mace Windu's perception of the Force, as well as Obi-Wan's fight with those droids, is powerful prose!

I'm of two minds on this. I certainly believe that part of the fun of Star Wars is that its universe extends beyond the boundaries of the movie screen. However, I admit I'm a little resentful that the movie is being judged not on its own merits as a movie but according to how well or how poorly it corresponds to events in the novel. I agree with Loremaster that you shouldn't have to read the novel in order to make sense of the movie. Of course, whereas I see treasure in Episode III, LM sees trash.

Some first impressions:

- Episode III is definitely more emotionally engaging than I & II. The scenes between Padme and Anakin were more expressive than before, and I actually found myself gripped by Anakin's descent to the dark side. I think Haydensen finally comes into his own and does a credible job of portraying a Jedi spiralling out of control and turning into something frightening.

- I love the rich dark cinematography. It gives the film a beautifully brooding feel. I think Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes Back are the two most gorgeous-looking SW films.

- The collapse of the Obi-Wan/Anakin partnership was a heartbreaking thing, amid all the other tragic happenings. What a great fighting team they had become--as seen in their battle against General Grievous. Between them, Anakin and Obi-Wan would have been an almost unstoppable duo, especially since the Force was so strong with them. It makes Obi-Wan's feeling that he failed Anakin that much more moving. What wasted potential...

- The slaughter of the Jedi knights was well-conveyed, as others have said. It's chilling how the Clone warriors of the Republic suddenly turn into cold-blooded murderers via a simple command, almost like flicking a switch. "Hey, we were just following orders. Sieg Heil!"

- The Padme/Anakin/Obi-Wan confrontation on the molten planet was for me one of the most powerful scenes in all the SW movies. I felt sympathy for all three of them. I could just sense the emotional/spiritual abyss opening up around them. There might as well have been a sign stuck somewhere among the lava pits: Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter.

- I agree with DR that after seeing all the amazing lightsabre fights in the prequels, the ones in the original trilogy seem underwhelming, but they are no less significant. Besides, witnessing Obi-Wan as a potent Jedi defeating Anakin in Ep. III only deepens the weird poignancy of seeing him in Episode IV as "old Ben" clashing once more with Vader.

- The visual juxtaposition between Padme on her operating table and Anakin on his was well done. She dies but gives life and light to the world in the "new hope" of her babies. He lives but brings death and darkness to the world in the form of Vader.

- I got a kick out of the scenes inside the Rebel blockade runner. As soon as I saw the familiar white walled corridors, I couldn't help but smile. It nicely readies the viewer for the beginning of Episode IV. Same thing with the proto-Star Destroyers: their progressively larger sizes sets the stage for the familiar, stupendous opening shot of A New Hope featuring a true Star Destroyer soaring overhead. I really enjoyed these clever little visual cues from Lucas. The final shot on Tatooine put me firmly into Star Wars geek mode, heh. Out of death and despair a new hope emerges...

I side with Darth Revan. Revenge of the Sith rules!

After the movie, I went home and immediately watched Episode IV. Knowing what transpired in Episode III definitely colored my response to A New Hope. Very interesting.

My attitude is that there is so much good stuff in Episode III that I'm focusing on that and not on the bad, which amounts to relatively minor things in my view. I'll let the naysayers talk about the flaws. No, really, I encourage more negative views to come forth: "Yes...I sense anger...let your hate flow through you!" (in my best Emperor voice)

-Anakins defeat by Obi (legs buring) was done much better than I thougth it was going to look like. I do have one question....wouldn't the proximity of the heat be somewhat unbearable, at least making one sweat more profusely, or is it so hot, does it evaporate instanttly:)?

I'm willing to assume the Jedi have some abilities like the Bene Gesserit, so they can probably adjust their metabolism. Or maybe just use the Force to keep the heat away? Heck, Anakin should have burned to death rather quickly, and I don't see what could have kept him alive other than his use of the Force.

Actually, the human body turns out to be more resilient than you might have thought. In Jeanne Cavelos's book, The Science of Star Wars (all SW fans should check it out, heh), she goes into detail (yeah, it's gruesome) about what would happen if you were to fall into lava. Well, you wouldn't necessarily be a goner. If you got out quickly enough, you would survive (and in the movie, Anakin doesn't even actually come into contact with the lava, though he does lay on the hot slope above it for a while...which is, er, not good). Cavelos mentions a case of two geologists who fell into lava at the Hawaii Volcano Observatory. The lava wasn't very deep, and they managed to get out quickly. After hospitalization for their burns, they both recovered without serious permanent injury.

[Loredoctor]

The negative:
What I want to know is why the heat from the lava didnt kill the jedi? They spend so much time fighting above it and barely break out a sweat. Scientists have been turned to ash being near enough of it. It seems the lava is warm in ROTS.

Grivous - he is a pathetic character, in that he serves no purpose. When he finally does gain command (after Dooku's death), he is so incompetent that he cant even detect a fleet of clones arriving at his planet. And it seems odd that obi-wan goes out of his way to kill him. Not very jedi-like.

Alot of the direction is weak; Lucas can't direct action, as every time something important happens he cuts to another shot (i.e. when Grievous loses his hands, Dooku loses his hands, and anakin losing his limbs) - is such coordination difficult for Lucas?

The opening space battle was poor - it had no appeal other than pretty effects. The battles in ANH and ROTJ had emotional impact. This one came out of no where, about the saving of a villain, and had no resolution (where did the fleet go?).

Lucas avoided any direction of the big picture. We saw no shots of the clone wars other than the weak endless beach battle of Kashyyk (just how long can either side hold one line? it seemed the droids just kept throwing troops at the clones for ages).

How long does it take to build a Death Star? Obviously 20 years at least. That doesn't seem right.

Weak acting. Further, Jackson's portrayal of Mace Windu is not good; he comes across as an angry man who tries too hard to look cool.

[Seafoam Understone]

Still haven't seen it but I was talking to a friend who had and he said he would not be able to watch ANH ever again because of the relatively S-L-O-W saber-fight between Obi-wan and Vader. I just watched that tonight and could see the differences because of the fight between Darth Maul and Obi-wan/Guai Gon Jinn <whatever!>
Was thinking that the guys at ILM could re-make that one fight scene in ANH by having actors in a Vader suit and a Jedi Cloak (note: that Kenobi never removes his hood. That a "long-shot" of the two fighting with the speed that is (now) expected of Jedi's could be done with the "close-ups" of Alec Guiness and Vader put in where they're normally are. They just fight real fast then slow-down, fight fast, slow, fast...etc. Til Vader plays his final cut. Just something else that I think would help tie in the movies (visually) together. I mean you gotta admit that ANH saber battle was pretty slow.

Made me also wonder though.... Vader (or any of the Siths) didn't KNOW about this ability to vanish upon death? Recall scene of Vader's boot poking at the discarded robes and his staring at them as if in puzzlement. Was also thinking they could insert yet another "new" scene of Vader using his saber against the blast doors that Luke blasted shut while they were making their get-away. It would at least show Vader doing something ... or is that too redundant?

[Loredoctor]

Why should they change it? Heaven forbid Lucas must change the movies again. Why cant people accept the fact the originals were enjoyable? Must they be changed non stop?

[Fist and Faith]

I'm of two minds on this. I certainly believe that part of the fun of Star Wars is that its universe extends beyond the boundaries of the movie screen. However, I admit I'm a little resentful that the movie is being judged not on its own merits as a movie but according to how well or how poorly it corresponds to events in the novel. I agree with Loremaster that you shouldn't have to read the novel in order to make sense of the movie.

Yeah, believe it or not, that's how I feel. I'm hoping to see the movie again tonight. Now that the surprise of what's not in it is over, I'm hoping to be able to view it on its own merits. As I've said, I was literally worried that people who hadn't read the book wouldn't see any cohesion in the movie. That's more my problem than simply wishing this or that was in it. I wish Tom Bombadil was in the FOTR movie, but I love the movie without him. But the fact that, as Loremaster says, Grievous is useless in the movie is a great loss. Especially since he was so great and nasty in the Clone Wars cartoon, which, I believe, Lucas says is part of the movie continuity.

- The slaughter of the Jedi knights was well-conveyed, as others have said. It's chilling how the Clone warriors of the Republic suddenly turn into cold-blooded murderers via a simple command, almost like flicking a switch. "Hey, we were just following orders. Sieg Heil!"

I don't think the clones had any choice but to obey. I mean literally. Part of Jango's payment (but I don't remember if this was in the movie, or just the book ) was one clone that was entirely free - not given any conditioning at all - for him to raise as his "son." The rest were conditioned in various ways, and Order 66 must certainly have been one of them.

- The Padme/Anakin/Obi-Wan confrontation on the molten planet was for me one of the most powerful scenes in all the SW movies. I felt sympathy for all three of them. I could just sense the emotional/spiritual abyss opening up around them. There might as well have been a sign stuck somewhere among the lava pits: Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter.

Yes! Truly heartwrenching stuff! Obi-Wan's grief and anger, Padme's incomprehension and heartbreak, all largely because Anakin was willing to do anything to save her.

- The visual juxtaposition between Padme on her operating table and Anakin on his was well done. She dies but gives life and light to the world in the "new hope" of her babies. He lives but brings death and darkness to the world in the form of Vader.

Nicely said! I hadn't compared the two events that way.

Made me also wonder though.... Vader (or any of the Siths) didn't KNOW about this ability to vanish upon death? Recall scene of Vader's boot poking at the discarded robes and his staring at them as if in puzzlement.

I was really happy that this is addressed in Ep III. Yoda gives a tiny hint at it at the very end of the movie, and I already quoted the part in the book that explains it more fully.

[Avatar]

...I don't think the clones had any choice but to obey. I mean literally. Part of Jango's payment (but I don't remember if this was in the movie, or just the book ) was one clone that was entirely free - not given any conditioning at all - for him to raise as his "son." The rest were conditioned in various ways, and Order 66 must certainly have been one of them.

Yeah, it's specifically mentioned in Episode II.

And that said, where did the whole "Episode" idea come from? ANH was specifically titled Chapter 4: A New Hope, wasn't it?

--A

[Worm of Despite]

Eh, Episode sounds better to me. Star Wars is more a matinee/serial thing in its style than a book, anyway.

[aTOMiC]

I agree completely with Matrix to the last detail. Including running home after watching EP III to watch IV with a new perspective. Watching Vader appear for the first time in A NEW HOPE changed my feelings about the character. He's no longer just some cold blooded monster. He's what is left of Anakin. I think we can finally truly share what Lucas has always imagined and was never able to truly convey until now.

[Loredoctor]

I think we can finally truly share what Lucas has always imagined and was never able to truly convey until now.

It is known that Lucas made it up as he went along; Vader was never a tragic figure in ANH. I don't mean to attack you, but Lucas gets far too much credit.

[CovenantJr]

If nothing else, the immense plot holes and inconsistencies clearly point to Lucas having no major back story in mind when he made A New Hope.

[Worm of Despite]

If nothing else, the immense plot holes and inconsistencies clearly point to Lucas having no major back story in mind when he made A New Hope.

True. I've been wondering: when exactly did Lucas make the change and insert the whole "Episode IV: A New Hope" thing? I heard it was like a month after the initial 77 release? Or was it later? It seems he had something planned, to be sure, but I suppose he didn't have anything major worked out, like you said, CovJr.

[Fist and Faith]

It would be interesting, just for the heck of it, to know exactly what he did have planned from the beginning. From the beginning, we were told that there would be a total of nine movies, that the second trilogy would be the fall of the Old Republic, that Obi-Wan knocked Anakin into a volcano, and probably some other things that aren't coming to mind at the moment. But some things certainly changed. And I wonder if Anakin was always planned to be fatherless.

[aTOMiC]

I think we can finally truly share what Lucas has always imagined and was never able to truly convey until now.

It is known that Lucas made it up as he went along; Vader was never a tragic figure in ANH. I don't mean to attack you, but Lucas gets far too much credit.

Though I understand the source of your comment I feel the need to explain my point of view. The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, whether you think Lucas is telling the truth about the history of his development of the Star Wars storyline or not, has been around in an understandable form since the script for Return of the Jedi was completed. I am an amateur fiction writer and I know how I feel about the characters I’ve created. There is a story that will appear in the Kevin’s Watch Anthology that features a character that relates a tragedy from his past. The character explains the event in basic terms but with emotional distress. As the creator I “felt his pain” so to speak and only I understand the particulars of the event that I chose not to reveal in the character’s narrative. I look at Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker in a similar way. I know that Lucas had to have known and felt the full tragedy of Anakin as early as 1982 or thereabouts as he finished the screenplay of Jedi. (If you believe Lucas you may subscribe to the notion that he had the makings for a full three part story back before he began filming Episode IV but only had the funding to create the first act and therefore he knew from that moment about the Anakin Tragedy at least in its most basic form.) What I’m saying is that long before the prequels began, we knew Darth Vader. We knew he was a good person before his turn to the dark side. He fostered two children that were hidden from him. He helped to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. There were many things about the character we’ve always known but I personally couldn’t appreciate the full tragedy until experiencing the prequels (especially Episode III). If Lucas is anything like me, he must have been filled with emotion as he originally crafted the Vader/Skywalker character in his mind and until last Sunday I couldn’t fully appreciate what a heartbreaking and pitiable figure Anakin Skywalker truly is.

[Avatar]

Good post Tom.

--A

[Warmark Jay]

(If you believe Lucas you may subscribe to the notion that he had the makings for a full three part story back before he began filming Episode IV but only had the funding to create the first act and therefore he knew from that moment about the Anakin Tragedy at least in its most basic form.)

In my earlier post in this thread, I linked an old "Rolling Stone" interview with Lucas, conducted shortly after the original theatrical release of "Star Wars", that indicates that Lucas really had no notion of making Vader a). Luke's father and b). a tragic figure. He also states that he had little idea as to how the sequels (if they got made) would play out - he mentions a battle on Kashyyk, which evolved into the final Endor battle (and was, of course, revisited in Ep. III), and he mentions the possibility of a prequel featuring young Obi-Wan.

Lucas has contradicted himself about his grand design for "Star Wars" numerous times; it doesn't detract from the films, IMHO.

[CovenantJr]

It's a very interesting interview in places. I've quoted a very relevant section:

What's the story?

It's about Ben and Luke's father and Vader when they are young Jedi knights. But Vader kills Luke's father, then Ben and Vader have a confrontation, just like they have in Star Wars, and Ben almost kills Vader. As a matter of fact, he falls into a volcanic pit and gets fried and is one destroyed being. That's why he has to wear the suit with a mask, because it's a breathing mask. It's like a walking iron lung. His face is all horrible inside. I was going to shoot a close-up of Vader where you could see the inside of his face, but then we said, no, no, it would destroy the mystique of the whole thing.



...May 25, 1977

[Fist and Faith]

I'd like to see the prequels with Ben and Luke's father and Vader!

[Worm of Despite]

I was going to shoot a close-up of Vader where you could see the inside of his face, but then we said, no, no, it would destroy the mystique of the whole thing.

I wish Lucas had said that about the Wampa in Empire Strikes Back! Bah.

[Loredoctor]

I think we can finally truly share what Lucas has always imagined and was never able to truly convey until now.

It is known that Lucas made it up as he went along; Vader was never a tragic figure in ANH. I don't mean to attack you, but Lucas gets far too much credit.

Though I understand the source of your comment I feel the need to explain my point of view. The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, whether you think Lucas is telling the truth about the history of his development of the Star Wars storyline or not, has been around in an understandable form since the script for Return of the Jedi was completed. I am an amateur fiction writer and I know how I feel about the characters I’ve created. There is a story that will appear in the Kevin’s Watch Anthology that features a character that relates a tragedy from his past. The character explains the event in basic terms but with emotional distress. As the creator I “felt his pain” so to speak and only I understand the particulars of the event that I chose not to reveal in the character’s narrative. I look at Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker in a similar way. I know that Lucas had to have known and felt the full tragedy of Anakin as early as 1982 or thereabouts as he finished the screenplay of Jedi. (If you believe Lucas you may subscribe to the notion that he had the makings for a full three part story back before he began filming Episode IV but only had the funding to create the first act and therefore he knew from that moment about the Anakin Tragedy at least in its most basic form.) What I’m saying is that long before the prequels began, we knew Darth Vader. We knew he was a good person before his turn to the dark side. He fostered two children that were hidden from him. He helped to hunt down and destroy the Jedi. There were many things about the character we’ve always known but I personally couldn’t appreciate the full tragedy until experiencing the prequels (especially Episode III). If Lucas is anything like me, he must have been filled with emotion as he originally crafted the Vader/Skywalker character in his mind and until last Sunday I couldn’t fully appreciate what a heartbreaking and pitiable figure Anakin Skywalker truly is.

I agree with all that, but my first point (as proven above) is that Lucas made it up as he went along. He never had a full story planned out (there are many many changes from what he originally planned), and is contradicting himself between 4-6 and 1-3.

[CovenantJr]

I was interested to read that Lucas had four different scripts for A New Hope, with different plots and different sets of characters - including one that revolved heavily around Wookies fighting the Empire, rather than the more familiar rebels.

Another point that caught my eye was Lucas' comment that he used such a large group of protagonists in order to keep his options open for sequel directions, and to allow for the possibility of one or two of the cast not wanting to come back.