The Catholic church I go to doesn't teach that anymore, and I believe that the Church in general has backed off that.Avatar wrote:IIRC, the original doctrine was indeed that any unbaptised child would not be allowed in heaven, but that this has been changed. (Hopefully someone can confirm or correct?)
Hypothetical question about the Pro Life stance
Moderator: Fist and Faith
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Avatar
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Yeah, that's pretty much my understanding. Although, that raises an interesting question in itself:
Was it changed because people "realised" that they'd misinterpreted god's law? Or because people couldn't reconcile the idea of a just, merciful and compassionate god denying unbaptised babies entrance into heaven?
--A
Was it changed because people "realised" that they'd misinterpreted god's law? Or because people couldn't reconcile the idea of a just, merciful and compassionate god denying unbaptised babies entrance into heaven?
--A
presumably they "realised" they'd misinterpreted it when they started to lose a lot of believers because they couldn't reconcile the idea of a just, merciful and compassionate god denying unbaptised babies entrance into heaven.
I don't see why they'd have a reason to change anything unless they were looking for a reason to change it.
I don't see why they'd have a reason to change anything unless they were looking for a reason to change it.
[spoiler]If you change the font to white within spoiler tags does it break them?[/spoiler]
I'd say that's probably pretty close to the truth.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Cail must know some pretty wacky Catholics...
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
Well, you know what you always find when you find four Catholics together?Plissken wrote:Cail must know some pretty wacky Catholics...
....a fifth.
Thanks folks, I'm here all week, try the veal.....
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
>rimshot<
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
I don't think they misrepresent - I think that, for them (Cail and those like him excepted, possibly), Soul/Life are interconnected to the point that protecting one protects the other.ur-bane wrote:Could you expand on this? Are you saying that the true issue with Christians is the "soul" and not "life"? And that perhaps they are misrepresenting the true cause of their worry?Plissken wrote: It would be nice for me, at least as a mental exercise, if Pro Life Christians began insisting that only the sanctum of a mother's womb allows the soul to enter, but I doubt that this will happen.
I also think that both the Pro Life stance on both the Schiavo case and protecting collections of cells less complex than many tumors is pretty indicative of this argument.
Sentience, Intelligence, Self Awareness, the Ability to Choose or Act - these are the things that define humanity. None of these things are/were present in either zygotes or Terry, but the Pro Life movement rallys to "protect" them. On the other hand, they don't claim to be advocates for all life, including the fungi (whose cells are more defined, and arguably more complex that fetal stem-cells), on the basis that such life isn't "human".
So in the absense any of the traits (or organs, in the case of stem-cells) that usually define us as human, and therefore worthy of their protection, what trait is it that Pro Life proponents claim imbues these cell collections with "humanity"?
I propose that most of the Pro Life camp would say it has to be the soul.
It should be noted that Cail has implied several times that his answer has more to do with the potential of each zygote, and the expectations of those around it that are worth protecting. I think that this is both a more honest and more accurate answer than anything to do with souls, but I also think that he is in the minority.
(As for the actual content of my above quote, it was more of a little joke than anything else.)
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
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duchess of malfi
- The Gap Into Spam
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One of my friends and his wife lost their second son about this time last year. The had their first child with no problems, but then couldn't get another one started...They had undergone round after round of fertility treatments, lost every one of those babies quite early in the pregnancy, each time with great heartbreak, and were overjoyed when finally one of the pregnancies seemed to be working out. Horribly, at a full eight months of pregnancy, the baby stopped moving. My friend left work and rushed his wife to the nearest hospital to their home, but it was already too late. The baby was gone. 
The baby was given a name, and a full funeral in their Catholic Church. The priest and people in the church were kindness itself to my friend and his wife, and everyone assurred them that their son was indeed, in heaven.
I'm not sure if you could call this a still birth, given how far along the baby was, or a very late miscarriage (though he was delivered with a C-section) -- but either way, the Church said the baby was in heaven.
The baby was given a name, and a full funeral in their Catholic Church. The priest and people in the church were kindness itself to my friend and his wife, and everyone assurred them that their son was indeed, in heaven.
I'm not sure if you could call this a still birth, given how far along the baby was, or a very late miscarriage (though he was delivered with a C-section) -- but either way, the Church said the baby was in heaven.
Love as thou wilt.
That is absolutely heartbreaking Duchy.
It's stories like that that and my friend's that have pushed me to say "no thanks" to in vitro fertilization. Take the whole "playing God" argument out of the picture, and it seems relatively clear that the technology just isn't there yet.
As I've discussed before, I'm as OK as I can be with abortion in the case of rape, because rape is hardly consentual sex. I would have no problem with the stem cells from those aborted babies being used for stem-cell research.
It's stories like that that and my friend's that have pushed me to say "no thanks" to in vitro fertilization. Take the whole "playing God" argument out of the picture, and it seems relatively clear that the technology just isn't there yet.
As I've discussed before, I'm as OK as I can be with abortion in the case of rape, because rape is hardly consentual sex. I would have no problem with the stem cells from those aborted babies being used for stem-cell research.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
See, but those types of fetal stem-cells are just about obsolete anyway. The next wave of fetal stem-cell work will be done with "cultured" stem-cells. In other words, the egg is fertilized in a similar method to the process used for invitro fertilization, and then the stem cells are grown in a culture.
The whole point is get stem-cells that haven't "decided" to become an organ or something already.
The whole point is get stem-cells that haven't "decided" to become an organ or something already.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
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Avatar
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So you fertilise an egg to get stem-cells only? I can foresee this getting very "philosophically messy."
Thing is, as (Plissken?) mentioned earlier, who would refuse to use it to save somebody in their families life?
Interesting, SA has just started a "cell-bank", and what you do is register yourslef while pregnant, then as the baby is born, a tech squeezes the blood from the cut umbilical into a sterile container, and it get's frozen by some technique that prevents cell-rupture, and stored for the entire life of the baby.
There are already 40 diseases/whatever that can be treated by the cells obtained in this way, and if you're related to the baby, there's a 1 in 4 chance that you'll be enough of a match to be treated by those cells yourself. Of course, as Plissken says, the real first prize is going to be from those "undifferentiated" cells.
But hell, we should take what we can get at the moment, right? I'm sure even the most stringent pro-life (aarg) supporter can't have a problem with the process I mentioned.
--A
Thing is, as (Plissken?) mentioned earlier, who would refuse to use it to save somebody in their families life?
Interesting, SA has just started a "cell-bank", and what you do is register yourslef while pregnant, then as the baby is born, a tech squeezes the blood from the cut umbilical into a sterile container, and it get's frozen by some technique that prevents cell-rupture, and stored for the entire life of the baby.
There are already 40 diseases/whatever that can be treated by the cells obtained in this way, and if you're related to the baby, there's a 1 in 4 chance that you'll be enough of a match to be treated by those cells yourself. Of course, as Plissken says, the real first prize is going to be from those "undifferentiated" cells.
But hell, we should take what we can get at the moment, right? I'm sure even the most stringent pro-life (aarg) supporter can't have a problem with the process I mentioned.
--A
Cells that can divide, and specify according to what's needed, but come from the excess tissue from birth instead of from a fertilised egg. Hmmm...
"Philosophically messy" indeed!
"Philosophically messy" indeed!
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
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Cagliostro
- The Gap Into Spam
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I get that alot!
(Welcome to the Close.)
(Welcome to the Close.)
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-- James Madison
"If you're going to tell people the truth, you'd better make them laugh. Otherwise they'll kill you." - George Bernard Shaw
-
Cagliostro
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 9360
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:39 pm
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The dead bit, or the taller bit? Or both?Plissken wrote:I get that alot!
(Welcome to the Close.)
I just happened to find a copy of Escape from LA the other night for a low price, so I had to pick it up. I forgot how good it was.
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life
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Kymbierlee
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Mothers have the option in the US, too, but it costs 1500-2000 dollars and isn't covered by insurance. Now what does that tell you? Sounds to me that someone out there that stands to profit from illness wants this to be at least relatively unaffordable to the average person. Imagine if we actually started curing diseases like cancer and so forth...where would that leave all of the drug companies, large health care corporations, etc? I think there is more of a motive to the ban on stem cell research in the US than meets the eye....Interesting, SA has just started a "cell-bank", and what you do is register yourslef while pregnant, then as the baby is born, a tech squeezes the blood from the cut umbilical into a sterile container, and it get's frozen by some technique that prevents cell-rupture, and stored for the entire life of the baby.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt and a leaky tire.
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Fist and Faith
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For me, it is the potential of humanity. As I've said, nothing in the universe becomes a human other than this particular kind of collection of cells. Since humans are top on my list of things to love and protect, zygotes are pretty special also.Plissken wrote:So in the absense any of the traits (or organs, in the case of stem-cells) that usually define us as human, and therefore worthy of their protection, what trait is it that Pro Life proponents claim imbues these cell collections with "humanity"?
I suspect you're right. Which is odd, since I imagine they also say the soul is indestructible.Plissken wrote:I propose that most of the Pro Life camp would say it has to be the soul.
Well I'm on his side of this one. We don't seem to have a lot of common ground, but when Cail and Fist & Faith team up, the very earth trembles!Plissken wrote:It should be noted that Cail has implied several times that his answer has more to do with the potential of each zygote, and the expectations of those around it that are worth protecting. I think that this is both a more honest and more accurate answer than anything to do with souls, but I also think that he is in the minority.
It's a Haruchai thing.
*cough*
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
heh.....I can't remember the last time we agreed on something.Fist and Faith wrote:Well I'm on his side of this one. We don't seem to have a lot of common ground, but when Cail and Fist & Faith team up, the very earth trembles!
It's a Haruchai thing.
As I've said before, I don't have all the answers, so I'd rather err on the side of life. I don't think that's a bad philosophy.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
