Kevin's Watch

Oh, yea, they lied and shoved square pegs into round holes, but, if we use political spin, we could say at the time of those statements, it wasn't Purgatory, everything we saw up to S5 end was actually occuring (I believed before reading the theory), Purgatory didn't come along until the "sideways" flashes.

To me, that is legitimate authorial misdirection, because it was true at the time, according to the story the audience knew, they never said Purgatory would never enter the story, only that it wasn't the current explanation of what was going on. The Series wasn't about them moving on, it was about the events before that, that made them all so special to one another to create this "purgatory Universe". Moving on was just the ending, as it is to any story (A lifetime, a relationship, a loss, etc)

The Pregnancy death Sentence is about all I can think of to feel bitter about, I can theorize the numbers, and accept the Wild Magic and "waking up" and everything related, but, if the Island stuff is real, before Purgatory, then where was the Fertility storyline headed? It's what brought Juliette into the story. I thought it was related to the destruction of the Egyptian Feritlity Statue (Paw...something or other?), but, that was before Ethan was conceived and born on the island.

sindatur wrote: The Pregnancy death Sentence is about all I can think of to feel bitter about, I can theorize the numbers, and accept the Wild Magic and "waking up" and everything related, but, if the Island stuff is real, before Purgatory, then where was the Fertility storyline headed? It's what brought Juliette into the story. I thought it was related to the destruction of the Egyptian Feritlity Statue (Paw...something or other?), but, that was before Ethan was conceived and born on the island.

Dare we say it had something to do with the nuke going off? That's about all I can say with speculation about that...and what about the "infection"/"darkness" that Claire supposedly had? Isn't that suppose to spread if let out? Those two (that I lump under the category of "Sickness") were what I considered bona fide, important, needs some sort of resolution. Instead, we're stuck with nothing except, "well, I guess it kinda went away when it was convenient." And did Sayid die twice, then?
Overall, I kinda like the explanation of the Flash Sideways (it being a sort of Purgatory that exists separate from our Space/Time) but I don't think sufficient closure was brought to the Island story. In this case, I think the focus on characters actually hurt the overall story.

Honestly, I came away thinking the Light on the Island created all kinds of weird effects including the problems with fertility, the fact that the Island seemed to move (and was evidently the home of some Egyptians who built that statue way back when), the freaky magnetism, etc.

I didn't need to have it explained in much more detail, any more than I need to know precisely why Dracula needs permission to enter a home or what the Grays' homeworld was like on The X-Files.

Zahir wrote:Honestly, I came away thinking the Light on the Island created all kinds of weird effects including the problems with fertility, the fact that the Island seemed to move (and was evidently the home of some Egyptians who built that statue way back when), the freaky magnetism, etc.

I didn't need to have it explained in much more detail, any more than I need to know precisely why Dracula needs permission to enter a home or what the Grays' homeworld was like on The X-Files.

I would agree with you, if it was always like that, but, it happened after Ethan was born in the Dharma Days.

Ok folks, I've unstickied the topic as it is time to let it go. This thread should live a normal unstickied life from here and live out the rest of its natural days. Maybe some of us will see it in purgatory if we have a strong enough attachment to it.

Cagliostro wrote:Maybe some of us will see it in purgatory if we have a strong enough attachment to it.

But will we remember it? Will we be able to move on? Will we need Desmond to help us?

I'd rather have Juliet, or Kate "help" me ... but that's another story

I'd probably want Iliana to "help" me. Out of everyone in and out of the island, I'd say she did it for me the most.

Then again, Elsa kinda did it for me too.

Here's something I thought of earlier today: the fail-safe for the Swan was a key, Desmond was a "fail-safe" re: Jacob's plan, and Desmond apparently was a "key" for people from the original universe to use to enter the flash-sideways universe (the catalyst, anyway, for the cross-over to start).

Now why did the building Widmore hit Desmond with electromagnetic energy in look like Jacob's cabin? I don't know. Why did Jacob's cabin move around? Any connection? (This might seem like a strange time to ask questions about an episode that "far" back, but it ties in with what I was saying about the finale earlier.)

Mighara Sovmadhi wrote:Here's something I thought of earlier today: the fail-safe for the Swan was a key, Desmond was a "fail-safe" re: Jacob's plan, and Desmond apparently was a "key" for people from the original universe to use to enter the flash-sideways universe (the catalyst, anyway, for the cross-over to start).

Now why did the building Widmore hit Desmond with electromagnetic energy in look like Jacob's cabin? I don't know. Why did Jacob's cabin move around? Any connection? (This might seem like a strange time to ask questions about an episode that "far" back, but it ties in with what I was saying about the finale earlier.)

Don't be sorry, that's what Finale disections are about. Match what came before to what came in the end. Afterall, they've always referred back to the Pilot.

I like your Failsafe/Key statement, it fits perfect. Though they may not have always intended us to link some of the things the way we are, they did a good job of throwing in enough sinks that we can see Prisoner-Like analogies. I posted here in the last day or so that Desmond shone the light up outta the hatch in S1 before we met him (An explanation for his being a S1 character) and he was the light that shone on many of the Sideways people to wake them up (or show them the light)

Cool about the cabin, I didn't catch that, I'll have to watch for that when I rewatch the series, but I like the supposition (After the way Smokey capped on Locke for his stupidity and bounding like a sheep into the slaughter, I've gotta see Locke develop so I can appreciate how badly he got shafted)

damn.

lost is over. the lich king is dead.

whatevah shall i do??

Go on a killing spree. Read a book. Become a fire bug. Spend hours on Netflix online viewing. Become a demolitions expert. Take a walk in the park. Firm up your personal relationship with Satan. Do geo-caching. Plan a bank heist. Volunteer and help others. Learn the art of being a sniper. Learn an instrument. Kidnap a media mogul. Take dancing lessons. Hide in manholes until someone walks nearby and cut their Achilles tendon. Give blood. Build an army of squirrels. Give back to Mother Earth.



Or something.

Go back in time to when Lost started.

Didn't somebody famous for something say "The first step to finding yourself is getting Lost?" or somesuch?

"I don't believe in a lot of things, but I believe in duct tape." - Milo

I found this discussion quite accurate, personally:

theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2010/05/lost-i-dont-need-answersi-need.html

First of all, just logistically, how could the monster become human again defies even the shows own internal logic.

I see the point, but disagree. TANSTAAFL. If you unplug a clock radio, the numbers go out, but the clock itself doesn't disappear. The source made the MIB into something else, made him powerful, but it still made him. Perhaps if he'd been in smoke form...

Why does Jacob need to be replaced and the smoke monster does not? Especially if the island needs to be protected from the smoke monster. The idea that you can wipe out darkness completely boasts the conceit that one argument is completely right over the other.

The Island was around long before the smoke monster; why shouldn't it be around after? The question is, would the smoke monster have accepted/cared about replacement? I don't think so. That's a choice Jacob made, itself a continuation and even expansion of choice. I don't see anything else that says he had to appoint a successor (who are themselves metaphors for the struggle that would take place without them).

Great, so we are meant to believe that everything we learned from Jacob was essentially just his opinion? Shouldn’t there be some semblance of universal truth to Jacob’s ideology?

Somewhere, Lurch is laughing.

Lurch wrote:Sorry to dissapoint..you ask for logical answer...but LOST is not a show based in any Logic. Matter of fact,, any Logic in this show is an Illusion. Ask Jack..every time he trys to be Logical,, Mr Fix It..it goes to schitt in a handbucket...Logic? I dumped that pair of glasses after the opening minutes of episode 1 season 1..People DO NOT survive a plane coming apart at 30, or 20 or 10 thousand feet. This show is just opposite,, its about the Feel, The Texture,, the Inuitive,,the IMAGINATION. The ONLY reality of LOST that is REAL.. is how the Viewer Feels by the end of episode. That is Your Truth. Again as JJ Abramson said at the onset..Lost was originally conceived as the Ultimate Reality Show.

Each episode is a parable , a bit of Truth of the Individual,, that are building up to make a new Whole Person. The search for personal identity ,,Who Am I?..includes Who Am I Not..

Hey,, you can watch it how you may,, don't get me wrong. Its just ,,all the millions of questions generated by this show ,,are not generated by the show LOST,, but by the mis perception of the Show Lost. So the fans get upset cuz the producers don't answer their questions. The producer's Can't answer their questions because how do you tell a fan that they are mis perceiving the show and keep them as a fan at the same time.? You can live with the the frustration and disappointment all you want. At the end of each episode I don't have questions. I have enjoyment and amazement...

Hey heres one for you.. All of Lost,, and I do Mean ALL,, of LOST is Illusion as Reality..By the end of this shows run.. you will see that LOST is the greatest Reality Show ever.The Truth of Lost is what the viewer finds within himself by end of each episode.

The idea in that linked post that Jacob could have rendered his brother mortal at an earlier time is also flawed - the idea was that Desmond is the only one who could have gone down there and survived exposure well enough to pull the plug. Just because Jack replugged it doesn't mean he'd have lived if he went down first (he was washed out before the light came all the way back on anyway).

I think I just figured out what the sickness is. Rousseau linked the sickness to the attack on her team by the monster. In season 5 we saw the connection: the monster dragged them away and they came back infected.

How was Sayid infected? Through corrupted water. The sickness was from what the monster did to the water. We saw that the island's light was connected to water somehow. So was the monster.

And it was strange to me that on Wikipedia, a hint from the producers/writers about the last three episodes, was, "Water." How were the finale and its predecessors about water?

But now I can tell. That would also be the reason for the DHARMA Initiative having suits to keep out the sickness: insulate them from moisture potentially infected by the monster. And suppose Rousseau's team survived the attack. They might've had to find water to drink, water in the monster's lair.

QED...

Syl wrote:

First of all, just logistically, how could the monster become human again defies even the shows own internal logic.

I see the point, but disagree. TANSTAAFL. If you unplug a clock radio, the numbers go out, but the clock itself doesn't disappear. The source made the MIB into something else, made him powerful, but it still made him. Perhaps if he'd been in smoke form...

I would be willing to accept that explanation if Jacob's brother had retained his original body and only gained invulnerability and the ability to turn into the smoke monster. But his original body was discarded and died when he entered the Source, so the body he used throughout the series was not human. Seeing this, why exactly should unplugging the Source turn him human, if the body wasn't human to begin with?

Syl wrote:

Why does Jacob need to be replaced and the smoke monster does not? Especially if the island needs to be protected from the smoke monster. The idea that you can wipe out darkness completely boasts the conceit that one argument is completely right over the other.

The Island was around long before the smoke monster; why shouldn't it be around after? The question is, would the smoke monster have accepted/cared about replacement? I don't think so. That's a choice Jacob made, itself a continuation and even expansion of choice. I don't see anything else that says he had to appoint a successor (who are themselves metaphors for the struggle that would take place without them).

We don't know for sure that the Smoke Monster's first appearance was when Jacob's brother entered the Source. There are, in fact, at least two clues implying he wasn't the first Smoke Monster: first of all, Mother to warn Jacob that entering the Source would be "worse than dying" implies that she knew the consequences - either because she had seen them herself, or because she had been told by a hypothetical previous guardian. Second, because if Mother was "just" the protector of the Island like Jacob (which is substantiated by "Across the Sea" and the fact that she is killed with a dagger without need to unplug the Source), then she couldn't have killed every hunter in the village, razed the village to the ground AND buried the well by herself. The devastation was too large - and she was obviously not invulnerable, given how she died.

So, either Mother had additional power we never learned about (which would be quite a cop-out, in my opinion), then she had the power to summon the Smoke Monster (compare the devastation of the village with the devastation wrought by the Smoke Monster in settlements during the series). And if the Smoke Monster wasn't Jacob's brother yet, then it must have been something else.

Great, so we are meant to believe that everything we learned from Jacob was essentially just his opinion? Shouldn’t there be some semblance of universal truth to Jacob’s ideology?

Somewhere, Lurch is laughing.

Well, if the whole framework of the story is a battle of abstract concepts - free will versus fate, at the very least - and they even went so far as to discuss the nature of the afterlife, then yes, I think there should be some semblance of universal truth to Jacob's ideology, otherwise in my opinion they undermined the entire moral and philosophical foundation of the show.