Elohim's opposition to vain

[Borillar]

A long while back I posted the following question to the GI:

There's a question that's been raging on the "Watch", one that your recent post to the GI further fueled, and it has to do with the Elohim's opposition to Vain's purpose. It seems clear why Findail would have been opposed to Vain's purpose (because Findail thought he would "die" in that scenario), but it's less clear as to why Vain's purpose was undesirable to the rest of the Elohim. Yet in the "What Has Gone Before" for Runes, you make it pretty clear that Covenant is silenced not really to protect the Earth from his power, but rather to make Vain's purpose inaccessible. Why would the Elohim be opposed to creating a new Staff of Law? Perhaps they preferred having Covenant's ring themselves, but was the alternative an "undesirable" result? If so, why appoint Findail and make Vain's purpose possible?

SRD responded as follows:

This is another example of what I've been calling "open-ended plotting" on the part of the Elohim. Their true desire is that Linden should have and use Covenant's ring. They believe that because of her nature, her health-sense, and her commitment to healing, she could stop Lord Foul (and the Sunbane) without risking the Arch--and without bothering them. So they try to manipulate her into the position of, well, taking over for Covenant. But *just in case* that doesn't happen, they know they need to be prepared for other eventualities as well. For example, they're certainly aware that they might fail at imprisoning Vain. And if they *do* fail, an essential component of their manipulation collapses. So, very much like Lord Foul, they try to prepare for as many different scenarios as they can. If worst comes to worst, and Covenant retains his ring (and his purpose), Lord Foul and the Sunbane still have to be stopped. From their perspective, what actually happens in the story is the least desirable positive outcome.

I find myself still a bit confused by this response, though, so I thought I'd float it to see what others think. Here's my problem: the Elohim must know that the Staff of Law couldn't be used to defeat Lord Foul, and that its intended purpose was rather for the healing of the Land. And it seems unlikely that they would think Covenant would attempt to eliminate Lord Foul using the Staff. So imprisoning Vain and consequently preventing the creation of the Staff would not change the outcome of the battle against Foul, but instead would negate the chance of removing the Sunbane (which wild magic most likely could not do on its own). In other words, the pressure the <i>Elohim</i> sought to bring to bear related (in my perception) to the attempt to take out Lord Foul, and that pressure would likely be unaffected by the presence of the Staff.

I don't know if I'm being clear or not, but I just wanted to throw this out there.

[Fist and Faith]

The only thing I can figure is that the Elohim thought Linden knew, or would learn, what Vain's purpose was. And if they did manage to imprison or destroy Vain, her hope of a new Staff - an extremely powerful tool/weapon against the Sunbane - would be gone, and she'd feel more pressured to take the ring for herself.

[Kil Tyme]

I'm not so sure the Elohim were against the creation of a new staff, covertly. They chose Findial, after all. Perhaps it was really all just a test by the Elohim to see how loyal/sturdy/pure in mission/purpose the Demondim had made Vain. That was an awful lot of trust given towards our beloved Demondim spawn without a test and trial of some sort.

[wayfriend]

The Elohim are two things, and one of those things is that they are utterly convinced that they are capable of doing anything. Only their selfishness holds them back (and maybe that's a good thing). - Selfishness is not the right word: aloofishness?

Their omnipotence comes from the very essence of creation. They are the children of the Earth; the Wurd; they are, in a way, brothers of the Arch of Time itself.

And Wild Magic is the keystone of the Arch, enabling it's preservation as well as it's destruction.

The Elohim, therefore, believe that Wild Magic is sufficient for any purpose. It can eradicate Foul. It can heal the Sunbane. It can save everything and everyone. If only it were in the right hands.

I think that, as far as the Elohim are concerned, Linden having the ring solves everything. And I don't think that they are capable of thinking any other way. Their selfishness, and their solipsism, prevent any other conclusion: if they could imagine that Wild Magic was not sufficient to every need, then they would have to doubt that they were sufficient to every need.

Also, the Elohim understand somewhat the nature of having a relationship with the white gold. They know that they cannot merely yank the ring of TC and give it to Linden. And they know that TC is poisoned. Therefore, they only see danger to the Earth along any path in which TC keeps the ring. How could they believe that he will not ultimately destroy the Earth?

So they need TC to give up the ring. And they need Linden to pick it up. In a way, their vision is not totally wrong. What they do not understand is how this transfer needs to take place. They don't understand that it's graven in Covenants bones that he cannot yield the ring without first confronting the Despiser. They cannot fathom that Linden is not able to command the power of the ring while her inner demons steer her course.

All that the Elohim know is that the Staff of Law represents hope. Hope which takes the pressure off of Covenant giving Linden the ring. By removing that hope, they are doing what they can to keep the pressure on.

So they imprison Vain. Failing that, they send Findail along with Vain to thwart the effort. At the Isle of the One Tree, Findail tried, and failed, to steer them away through fear and guilt. (Why did he not do something more forceful, like sink the dromond? What, and risk a battle with Covenant himself, which would destroy the Arch?)

And Donaldson himself said, in an earlier GI question, that the Elohim respect Vain's purpose enough to withhold from destroying him and removing him from the equation irrevocably. They understand that Vain is a worst case scenario, but one which might be necessary if things don't come to pass as they hope. If they imprison Vain, they can always release him if it should come to pass that this is necessary.

[Rocksister]

What is solipsism?

[Xar]

What is solipsism?

The belief that you and you alone exist, and that the world around you is a projection of your mind. In this particular case, it is simply meant to say that the Elohim believe themselves to belong to a "higher order", and that their conception of how reality works is the only correct one.

[dlbpharmd]

Damn good posts, WF.

[Holsety]

The Elohim are two things, and one of those things is that they are utterly convinced that they are capable of doing anything. Only their selfishness holds them back (and maybe that's a good thing). - Selfishness is not the right word: aloofishness?

In SRD's words, they are "surquedrous" or have "surquedry" or something like that. Which means extreme arrogance. I'll never forget that, because it's the only time I've seen the word though from looking at the definition a guy by the last name of spencer uses it a lot.

Their omnipotence comes from the very essence of creation. They are the children of the Earth; the Wurd; they are, in a way, brothers of the Arch of Time itself.

This is the one thing I'm not too sure about...in the strictest sense I don't think they're really related or tied to wild magic, which is in every way seperate from the Land's natural order. If I remember right, the arch thing is actually one of the paradoxes inherent to the Land's natural order, both ever present and yet made from the thing not natural to existence (white gold, wild magic, whatever), and I suppose that the Elohim might be supporters or aspects of the Arch, but not its brother or equal. Don't think I'm making myself too clear but I don't have a head too clear right now.

But otherwise awesome post. I'm just nitpicking anyway.

[wayfriend]

What is solipsism?

The belief that you and you alone exist, and that the world around you is a projection of your mind.

I meant it to refer to the fact that the Elohim think that they are the be-all and end-all of the universe, the ultimate answer to anything the Earth requires. Perhaps 'solipsism' isn't exactly the correct right word.

(Checking ... solipsism can mean 'extreme egocentrism', which I will now say is what I intended to say. )

[edit to add:]

This is the one thing I'm not too sure about...in the strictest sense I don't think they're really related or tied to wild magic, which is in every way seperate from the Land's natural order.

Ah, I refer (perhaps unwisely) to other theories that I have. It is hard to extricate one from the rest. I believe that the Elohim are profoundly related to the Arch, which I have explained here. (It's not that I love referencing myself ... I just like to save effort.)

[Relayer]

What is solipsism?

The belief that you and you alone exist, and that the world around you is a projection of your mind. In this particular case, it is simply meant to say that the Elohim believe themselves to belong to a "higher order", and that their conception of how reality works is the only correct one.

One of the many wonderful paradoxes in the story is that while the Elohim are unquestionably arrogant, in some ways they are correct. They are Earthpower incarnate, which is of a higher order; they "exist" within every atom in the Earth. Everything "material" is a projection of that power.

[wayfriend]

This is the one thing I'm not too sure about...in the strictest sense I don't think they're really related or tied to wild magic, which is in every way seperate from the Land's natural order.

Ah, I refer (perhaps unwisely) to other theories that I have. It is hard to extricate one from the rest. I believe that the Elohim are profoundly related to the Arch, which I have explained here. (It's not that I love referencing myself ... I just like to save effort.)

Pardon me, Holsety, I see you've already been there.

[Holsety]

This is the one thing I'm not too sure about...in the strictest sense I don't think they're really related or tied to wild magic, which is in every way seperate from the Land's natural order.

Ah, I refer (perhaps unwisely) to other theories that I have. It is hard to extricate one from the rest. I believe that the Elohim are profoundly related to the Arch, which I have explained here. (It's not that I love referencing myself ... I just like to save effort.)

Pardon me, Holsety, I see you've already been there.

Yes, but I have a tendency to sometimes not read through the entirety of a thread and focus on the later points being made. And your wonderful post was a victim to this, being totally ignored in favor of later arguments (whatever those were), which I know because I've never read what I read in your initial post.

Of course, I was only planning on skimming anyway since it's in the early morning and this was going to be the last topic I checked. But I read the whole first post. When you say that we are struck as if by an earthquake...well, nah, not me, I just brushed off the creation story as a sort of paralell between the Worm and some sort of chaotic thing like Leviathan in Job (well really it's just a whale but w/in the bible it represented mystery and even "evil") which though beyond our understanding was just a tool of creation. I do have some vague disagreements with one aspect: the worm is not the creator, but the stars within it last. This reminds me of how the Creator creates existence and then realizes that Foul, agent imperfection, destruction, etc, exists, to mar it (that is how it goes, right?). Anyway, the implications of the thread are fascinating and I'll be taking another look, later.

And looking at my post...well, it's a fair point, but I can definitely qualify it as a "not made after long rumination over the multitude of ideas discussed in the thread" type of post. (It's the last one in the thread if anyone wants to see it).

[Usivius]

...could there not also be a possibility that the Elohim know something that others think is incompatible: that white gold and the staff of Law could work togethter? ... Just need the right person? ...or commbination of persons ...?

<shrug> ... merely allowing my mouth to run amok...

[Krilly]

So, very much like Lord Foul, they try to prepare for as many different scenarios as they can. If worst comes to worst, and Covenant retains his ring (and his purpose), Lord Foul and the Sunbane still have to be stopped. From their perspective, what actually happens in the story is the least desirable positive outcome.

(2nd Chron spoilers below)

Wow, so... they definitely did not like the fact that Covenant and Foul duked it out in the end with the ring. Sure, Linden did end up with it but she never used it against Foul like the Elohim had hoped. Perhaps the Elohim knew bad things would come of that encounter (opening up avenues for the final series). I always liked to relish in the fact that the end of WGW and Covenant's actions proved the Elohim wrong about him being "the bad guy" and Linden the true "hero"... but maybe that's not so.

[Xar]

I don't think so. The confrontation between Covenant and Foul couldn't happen any other way: they truly are aspects of each other. What the Elohim were afraid of - the most immediate danger - was for Covenant to use wild magic at the One Tree. He was poisoned, so his wild magic was greatly enhanced, but he also had less restraint over it; the Elohim were afraid that if he retained the ring, he would awaken the Worm of the World's End. Findail even says something to that effect on the Isle, when he tells Linden that that was the reason why Covenant had been silenced. That was their most immediate concern: they knew that if Linden had wielded the ring there, she wouldn't have used its magic so devastatingly, because she would have noticed... something strange... about the Tree (which she did). That was why they thought Linden needed the ring.

Also, remember that Linden used ring and Staff together when she healed the Land: that was another reason they had likely foreseen, and another reason for her to wield the ring. From the Elohim's point of view, Foul was a human problem (they even say so): I wonder whether they simply underestimate him because they cannot comprehend him, given that he belongs to an even higher level of reality than they do. Regardless, I think the Elohim simply didn't care about the confrontation with Foul; they probably dismissed the issue as irrelevant, figuring that if Linden had the ring, everything would automatically be made right by her. My idea is that to them, the Sunbane was the true problem and Foul was simply an annoyance (and it makes sense in a way, since the Sunbane was a corruption of the very power they embody, while Foul has no connection to them).

So they imprison Vain because this way they hope to add pressure on Linden at first, and Covenant should he ever free himself from the silence. by the same token, when Findail imprisons Vain in Andelain, he does so both because of his fear of Vain's purpose, and because - again - he hopes to put more pressure on Linden and Covenant (I wonder if he knew what Kevin told Linden...), perhaps reaching the point at which he believes Covenant will surrender his ring to Linden and Findail will be freed from his fate.

[Borillar]

Wow, this is a great discussion! I've finally gotten a few minutes to be able to chime back in, and I agree with most of what's said, but I have a few questions that remain:

I'm not so sure the Elohim were against the creation of a new staff, covertly. They chose Findail, after all. Perhaps it was really all just a test by the Elohim to see how loyal/sturdy/pure in mission/purpose the Demondim had made Vain.

And Donaldson himself said, in an earlier GI question, that the Elohim respect Vain's purpose enough to withhold from destroying him and removing him from the equation irrevocably. They understand that Vain is a worst case scenario, but one which might be necessary if things don't come to pass as they hope. If they imprison Vain, they can always release him if it should come to pass that this is necessary.

But consider too that when Vain tried to escape from the Elohim, they do very nearly destroy him. Remember the fire eating away at him as he swam towards Starfire's Gem? And they would have succeeded had it not been for the Haruchai (as I recall, the "bells" that Linden hears suggests that they are disappointed/angry at their failure). This suggests more than a mere "test" to me, or a desire only to lock Vain away. And it always seemed to me that Findail's appointment was more about stopping Covenant than about making Findail's earthpower available for a new Staff. Consider, too, Findail's desperate attempts towards the end to destroy Vain (by making him fall into the bottomless pit). Do people think that at this point Findail is acting in an ultra vires manner, i.e., beyond his authority? One might think so, except for the fact of their previous attempt on Vain's life when he escaped them. Consider too that if Findail is successful, then there is no Plan B (at least, as far as the Elohim see it): either Linden gets the ring from Covenant, or the world ends.

The Elohim are two things, and one of those things is that they are utterly convinced that they are capable of doing anything ... if they could imagine that Wild Magic was not sufficient to every need, then they would have to doubt that they were sufficient to every need.

Perhaps, but with one big exception: they admit that they are utterly powerless against the Despiser. True, they say this is because of their Wurd, suggesting that maybe it is self-imposed helplessness, but I don't think so. I would tend to agree with Xar that the Elohim view Foul as a "human problem" not worth their time, but they must know that Foul created the Sunbane, and will just do it again if he's not stopped.

I also don't think they believe they're the equal of wild magic; in fact, I think Findail at one point says that the only two threats to him are Vain and Covenant's ring, suggesting that he (and by extension, the Elohim) do not feel as though they are the equal of wild magic.

Boy, do I wish I had my books with me, so that I could cite with authority!

[Usivius]

i agree that there are seemingly a lot of contraditory points about the Elohim (depending on how you view them) ... and I am totally pumped about the next 3 books! ... this is absolute toruture!

Now we need that god-like remote from "Click" to temporarily go forward in time to when the series is done!...

[wayfriend]

Wow, this is a great discussion!

It sure is the kind that I prefer.

Perhaps, but with one big exception: they admit that they are utterly powerless against the Despiser. True, they say this is because of their Wurd, suggesting that maybe it is self-imposed helplessness, but I don't think so. I would tend to agree with Xar that the Elohim view Foul as a "human problem" not worth their time, but they must know that Foul created the Sunbane, and will just do it again if he's not stopped.

We are left to speculate: do the Elohim dismiss the importance of Foul because they cannot do anything about him? Do they ignore or play down whatever they cannot fix?

- - - - - - - - -

I wanted to come back to this thread and point out that we haven't really answered the question in the topic title.

I keep coming back to the first encounter with the Elohim, where they say: "You are the sun-sage. And you are not."

"Yet here is a mystery. All our vision has seen the same truth-that the Sun-Sage and ring-wielder who would come among us in quest are one being. Thereon hinge matters of grave import. And our vision does not lie. Rawedge Rim and Woodenwold do not lie. How may this be explained, Sun-Sage?"

We haven't answered everything until we've answered this mystery.

The implications of this are larger than the immediate mystery. If the Elohim indeed did not envision the truth about Covenant until he arrived ... this means so much.

It means that there was no plan to silence Covenant before he arrived.

It means that there was no plan to pressure Linden to take the ring ... until they arrived.

It means that they had no thought about preventing the new Staff of Law from coming into being ... until they arrived.

Did they devise their plan all at once, between the arrival of the Quest and Elohimfest? Of did they modify an earlier plan?

But surely Findail had been Appointed long before their arrival. What was he Appointed for, when they were operating on the assumption that the ring-bearer and the Sun-Sage were one?

Oy!

Here's another thing.

Maybe the Elohim believed that the Sun-Sage needed to take the ring so badly because it got their own darn plan back on track. I can see that. Maybe they needed to silence Covenant in order tosave the world from his danger. Maybe they needed Linden to think the new Staff of Law was beyond her reach, so that she would be pressured to look for another answer. I can see all these things.

But it still doesn't explain their "opposition to Vain".

Even if Findail is resistant to his purpose, surely the other Elohim are not taking such drastic action merely to spare Findail. He was Appointed: he's not supposed to be spared. The Fist and Kastenessen show that the Elohim have met the Earth's need in such a way many times... Findail himself spoke of Kastenessen's fate as utterly necessary.

So something else is going on ...

[Nom vs. Vain]

I would have to say that the Elohim were trying to tip the balance in their favor. Although I never particularly looked at the Elohim as good, I most defeinitely saw ur-Viles as bad. So if we see the Elohim as "good" then why would they want what they view as bad to be part of such a powerful weapon? Ahh and yet another influence, does anyone else see the Elohim more or less as the "Q" of Star Trek?

[burgs]

As always, great post, Wayfriend.

My biggest question/confusion revolves around the ur-viles.

They knew TC would understand the need for a Staff of Law, given his presence in the Land before; TCs relationships with everyone in the land taught him about Law, and Earthpower. They would also know, I assume, that he would understand, even though he can't see, that the Sunbane is a violation of Law. They knew that if he tried to "take" a new SoL from the One Tree, which he would undoubtedly do to fight the Sunbane, heal the land, and re-establish Law, that he would fail. (Berek, after all, was "given" the SoL.) They could not, however, counsel him against it, and neither could TC's dead in Andelain, although his dead did rather cryptically do just that.

I can understand that the ur-viles would have known that to create a new SoL with Vain, Earthpower incarnate was necessary, and such a thing could only come from the (an) Elohim.

But did/do they know that the Elohim appointed one of their own for a purpose in times of great need? Did they know that the Elohim would appoint one of their own for this need - the horror of the Sunbane? If they did, how could they know what the Elohim were planning on doing with their Appointed? If they did know - which seems unlikely if not impossible - why would they second guess them by creating Vain with only the barest hope that: 1) TC and his party would eventually arrive at Elemesnedene; and 2) that by some stroke of luck the Elohim's Appointed would join them on their journey and finally be merged together by Linden's will with the use of the white gold?

Or perhaps they weren't second guessing the Elohim. Perhaps they don't trust the Elohim. But I don't understand how that would be, unless I've missed or forgotten something regarding a relatinoship between the ur-viles and the Elohim.

Then again, are they even aware of the Elohim? If so, how? I suppose their relationship with their lore could explain that - that they are aware of the Elohim just as the Elohim are aware of them. Or that the Demondim whose children they are imparted the knowledge of the Elohim to them.

Or perhaps they thought that the white gold was sufficient against the Elohim and that TC would come to an understanding of how to create a SoL with Vain and the Appointed using the white gold - but frankly that strikes me as an impossible guess, going back to how could they guess that he would get to Elemesnedene? Unless they simply supposed that if he was going to make a go for the One Tree, that he would likely end up there. That's being very, very hopeful.

It seems that their purpose with Vain was just that - very, very hopeful, and more than likely to fail. When you think of everything that could go wrong with their plan, it certainly seems like that.

Anothing thing - what in the world is Vain made of?? Or does it matter?

I hope this hasn't been addressed before. My headache will have been in "vain".