When we meet the giants in the second chronicles they have some better 'technology' than the first chron giants, such as pitch and granite ships. (In TIW its mentioned that the giants grow teak and ironwood trees for their ships) but the second chronicle giants don't have clingor. This is weird because in LFB it says that the giants brought it to the land, so the second chronicle giants should have it.
A bit off topic, but I wonder which would have been a better giantship, the granite ones, or the wood ones with the high wood rudders?
Giant technology?
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The Laughing Man
- The Gap Into Spam
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Considering that the giants switched technologies between Chronicles, that strongly implies that the new stone ships were superior. But superior how?
We have no idea how how wood and (magical) stone differed in their sailing properties. Unmagical stone is too brittle to make ships from. We don't know if the magical stone resembled steel as a building material, or if it was comparable to wood, or if it was in fact inferior to wood and the Giants needed thicker and heavier masses of it to get the required strength.
A definite advantage of the stone is that it allowed the Giants to concentrate on their core abilities. ("Stone and Sea" has no mention of Wood in it.) They would have no longer have to spend their resources training some of their members to use stone and others wood. We don't know if the Giants were that good with wood in the first place either. The early Giants might not have been able to heal their wrecked ships like Pitchwife, only hammer on some extra planks over the holes.
Another thing we don't know how well the Giant homeland supports forests and if they ran up to the limits of lumber that their land could suistainably produce, which would necessitate either a cutback, foreign imports, or a shift in materials.
We have no idea how how wood and (magical) stone differed in their sailing properties. Unmagical stone is too brittle to make ships from. We don't know if the magical stone resembled steel as a building material, or if it was comparable to wood, or if it was in fact inferior to wood and the Giants needed thicker and heavier masses of it to get the required strength.
A definite advantage of the stone is that it allowed the Giants to concentrate on their core abilities. ("Stone and Sea" has no mention of Wood in it.) They would have no longer have to spend their resources training some of their members to use stone and others wood. We don't know if the Giants were that good with wood in the first place either. The early Giants might not have been able to heal their wrecked ships like Pitchwife, only hammer on some extra planks over the holes.
Another thing we don't know how well the Giant homeland supports forests and if they ran up to the limits of lumber that their land could suistainably produce, which would necessitate either a cutback, foreign imports, or a shift in materials.
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Rocksister
- Giantfriend
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:21 pm
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A lot of technological advances happen in 2,500 years. (Wasn't that the time lapse between first and second chronicles?) The Seareach Giants from the days of the Old Lords built Revelstone, and that stone is "living" stone. They also built Coercri from stone, and their lighthouse was made of stone, etc. I might be forgetful, but does it say that the Seareach Giants didn't make ships of stone? They said all the ships that sailed in search of their home beyond the Sunbirth Sea did not return. So they could have possibly lost every ship they built, and gave up since so many kindred were lost. Therefore, they didn't build any more stone ships, but they did have the ability to do so. They had just given up hope and weren't willing to risk their dwindling numbers of people just to see them lost as well. What do you think? Am I hitting the diamondraught entirely too much? Or perhaps not enough? I think the latter....... 
Heard my ears aright? Did not the gaddhi grant me this glaive?
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
One must have strength to judge the weakness of others. I am not so mighty. Lord Mhoram in TIW
The Giants indeed made wooden ships in the First Chronicles and sailed on them. The Lords had promised them Gildenlode keels too. I think the Giants could have found stone for their ships unless they relied on a very special granite, and granite by its nature just isn't that special at all, unless things are very different in the Land.
My guess would be that most likely the Giants were just "Wood floats, stone sinks, what else do you need to consider?" It wouldn't have been until much later than they came up to a better understanding of physics and could apply their well-honed stone-building skills to sailing.
My guess would be that most likely the Giants were just "Wood floats, stone sinks, what else do you need to consider?" It wouldn't have been until much later than they came up to a better understanding of physics and could apply their well-honed stone-building skills to sailing.
It's interesting that SRD has talked at length about why there haven't been any technical advances in the Land in 3500 years. Yet it appears that there have been advances elsewhere?Nerdanel wrote:The Giants indeed made wooden ships in the First Chronicles and sailed on them. The Lords had promised them Gildenlode keels too. I think the Giants could have found stone for their ships unless they relied on a very special granite, and granite by its nature just isn't that special at all, unless things are very different in the Land.
My guess would be that most likely the Giants were just "Wood floats, stone sinks, what else do you need to consider?" It wouldn't have been until much later than they came up to a better understanding of physics and could apply their well-honed stone-building skills to sailing.
I don't think the Unhomed lost ships... I think it said they couldn't find the way to return Home. But when LFB begins, the last searching ship had just returned to Coercri with news that they had made it to the edge of seas which they recognized, and the next journey could go directly there and hopefully from there to Home. Hence, Foamfollower was sent to Revelstone to ask the boon of the Gildenlode keels. Unfortunately we know how Damelon's prophecy turned out.They said all the ships that sailed in search of their home beyond the Sunbirth Sea did not return. So they could have possibly lost every ship they built, and gave up since so many kindred were lost.
And a good point about clingor. That could've come in handy many times on Starfare's Gem
Wonder if SRD just forgot about it?"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
As an aside, I do think that the reason that there haven't been any technological advances in the Land is that SRD needs for them not to be there in order to tell his story. The Land (and the rest of that world) has basically been stuck at Iron-Age technology for 10,000+ years. Magic or no, I don't see how that's possible.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Essentially, that's what he said.Cail wrote:As an aside, I do think that the reason that there haven't been any technological advances in the Land is that SRD needs for them not to be there in order to tell his story. The Land (and the rest of that world) has basically been stuck at Iron-Age technology for 10,000+ years. Magic or no, I don't see how that's possible.
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon
Guess I oughta read the G.I. more often.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
On the contrary, I think there has been significant technological development over the years, if you count magic as technology. And especially if you count the Demondim and their spawn. It might not seem on the surface, but the magic (or lore) in the Chronicles has a lot in common with technology. Like technology, magic needs to be taught and benefits from R&D. Apparently anyone can learn magic, although the talent varies and the common people mostly won't bother as that's a lot of work and becoming a Lord is like getting a double PhD. Still we see people like Triock picking up a little magic on the side.
Then there is the problem that the 10000+ years included a couple of severe depopulations and a lot of time during which those in power didn't want the ordinary people of the Land to get much of an education or to cooperate beyond village-scale.
Then there is the problem that the 10000+ years included a couple of severe depopulations and a lot of time during which those in power didn't want the ordinary people of the Land to get much of an education or to cooperate beyond village-scale.
10,000 years.
-No electricity, no meaningful understanding of how the human body works, no system of communication over distance, no navigation aids, no advancements in weaponry.
Absolutely doesn't add up. We're talking about 4 times the length of recorded human history.
-No electricity, no meaningful understanding of how the human body works, no system of communication over distance, no navigation aids, no advancements in weaponry.
Absolutely doesn't add up. We're talking about 4 times the length of recorded human history.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
A 19th century invention (as a practical application). I wouldn't consider it that obvious.Cail wrote:No electricity
The Land had accomplished healers whose abilities far exceeded modern medicine.no meaningful understanding of how the human body works
The Lords' development of that was a plot point in The Illearth War. The Clave members could communicate through their rukhs. All the Waynhim rysh were in communication with each other. It's extremely likely the ur-viles could do the same, given their confirmed scrying ability and common origin with the Waynhim.no system of communication over distance
Do maps count as navigation aids? They certainly had those. Kevin had included maps of Mount Thunder in the First Ward. Besides, the Upper Land was landlocked. They wouldn't have had much trouble finding their way, as there were plenty of landmarks, unlike on the high seas.no navigation aids
A movement away from bronze to iron is seen. The Warward in the First Chronicles used a "yellow metal" (likely bronze), but later iron became more widely used in the Land. (The ur-viles of course had been using iron all along.)no advancements in weaponry.
I think battle spells should count here, like na-Mhoram's Grim and the mind-control thing the Clave used against the Haruchai. Those weren't in use in the previous Chronicles. Also, I think the Coursers count as weaponry, much like tanks.
Imagine an Earth without Europe. Where would the technological level be now?Absolutely doesn't add up. We're talking about 4 times the length of recorded human history.
And, by the Last Chronicles, the Earth outside the Land may be significantly advanced from how we last saw it. It's a whole other political reality outside those natural barrers.
Without doing a play-by-play rebuttal, suffice it to say that it is unrealistic to expect that after 10,000 years, many of which Earthpower was utterly unknown, that large nation would be both unable to comprehend basic human anatomy and physiology, and would be unable to communicate over distance, even if that meant setting up something as simple as postal service.
If the area outside the Land had advanced (as I believe it's logical to assume), why haven't they entered the Land?
I won't argue that it makes for a good story, but I think it's a rather large hole as well.
If the area outside the Land had advanced (as I believe it's logical to assume), why haven't they entered the Land?
I won't argue that it makes for a good story, but I think it's a rather large hole as well.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
SRD has said in his GI that the Land is a special magical place that outside people find hard to find their way in. I'm allowing this on the basis of unknown magical physics. The outside people will be so surprised when they develop space travel - but there has been signs that the Land's Earth is larger than our Earth, so space travel might not necessarily work out after all with the variant non-magical physics.
The important thing you need to remember that during the time the Earthpower has been accessible (not counting the early period with Berek and all) the Land has not been a nation but rather a collection of villages ruled over by a small elite which has a vested interest in keeping the villages divided from each others and easily manageable.
You just cannot develop a technological civilization in a village, especially a village that suffers from occasional famines and needs every able person to work in matters directly related to survival. If some young people get occasionally taken away for blood sacrifices, that's only makes it worse. And as for the Clave, they DID have access to magical power and researched that.
EDIT - I forgot to mention that while human tyrants die eventually and get replaced by incompetent successors, Sheol kept running the Clave for who-knows-how-many centuries while pretending to be many different na-Mhorams.
The important thing you need to remember that during the time the Earthpower has been accessible (not counting the early period with Berek and all) the Land has not been a nation but rather a collection of villages ruled over by a small elite which has a vested interest in keeping the villages divided from each others and easily manageable.
Spoiler
The Masters actively discouraged travel as well as learning.
EDIT - I forgot to mention that while human tyrants die eventually and get replaced by incompetent successors, Sheol kept running the Clave for who-knows-how-many centuries while pretending to be many different na-Mhorams.
Spoiler
And as for the Masters, Liand said he hadn't noticed them growing older... although noticing this does raise a question of Liand's true age/whether the common people of the Land grow old really fast nowadays.
I'll grant you that, but look at how knowledge has been suppressed in virtually every culture in our world. Yet it has still managed to flourish. I find it nearly inconceivable that (at the very least) medical technology hasn't advanced at all (weaponry too for that matter) in 10,000 years.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Reave the Unjust
- Elohim
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:12 pm
- Location: Bristol, UK
Enjoying this thread!
It also gives examples (albeit fictional) of how cultural norms and ideals can effect how technology is developed and used. E.g. Air-balloons and zeppellin-like craft are utilised much more at one point than they ever have been in OUR history. This is simply because they're seen as an elegant and efficient way to fly (and wage war, sadly), and because it's become almost a tradition.
IIRC, there are quite a few REAL historical instances of technology being developed, but not used often.
The wheel existed in the Aztec empire, but was apparently not used.
Gunpowder was invented in Asia hundreds of years before "advanced" Europeans used it in warfare. Yet even after guns and cannons existed many Eastern civilisations considered it almost dishonourable to rely on them in battle.
Shame we don't have that restraint now, eh? (Oops, wrong meeting.....)
Obviously speculation galore, but it makes me think!
What if there was just a slight change in the development of our technology. Would different cultural values influence its growth? What if we valued "spiritual technology" (magic?) above material technology?
Who could say if any of this would mean "better" or "worse" tech.
What IS better technology?
Some would say that for all the advances in our lifetimes there have been losses in other areas (socially, environmentally etc.).
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that both the Giants and the Land-people have lost and gained technology in response to THEIR world. If they seem un-developed then that is only judging them by our standards.
OOPS i've rambled again.....
Kim Stanley Robinson explores this idea in the book "The Years of Rice and Salt". It interweaves an "alternate history" of the world (from 1000AD- Present) with a re-incarnation theme.Nerdanel wrote: Imagine an Earth without Europe. Where would the technological level be now?
It also gives examples (albeit fictional) of how cultural norms and ideals can effect how technology is developed and used. E.g. Air-balloons and zeppellin-like craft are utilised much more at one point than they ever have been in OUR history. This is simply because they're seen as an elegant and efficient way to fly (and wage war, sadly), and because it's become almost a tradition.
IIRC, there are quite a few REAL historical instances of technology being developed, but not used often.
The wheel existed in the Aztec empire, but was apparently not used.
Gunpowder was invented in Asia hundreds of years before "advanced" Europeans used it in warfare. Yet even after guns and cannons existed many Eastern civilisations considered it almost dishonourable to rely on them in battle.
Shame we don't have that restraint now, eh? (Oops, wrong meeting.....)
Obviously speculation galore, but it makes me think!
What if there was just a slight change in the development of our technology. Would different cultural values influence its growth? What if we valued "spiritual technology" (magic?) above material technology?
Who could say if any of this would mean "better" or "worse" tech.
What IS better technology?
Some would say that for all the advances in our lifetimes there have been losses in other areas (socially, environmentally etc.).
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that both the Giants and the Land-people have lost and gained technology in response to THEIR world. If they seem un-developed then that is only judging them by our standards.
OOPS i've rambled again.....
Again, I'll grant that as well, but when the mysticism is stripped away, as Earthpower was, I believe that man would have to fall back on more secular technology.
Now I'll also grant you that had technology progressed, it would've made for some very different books. If Lord Mhoram had ridden out of Revelstone in an M-1 Abrams, Lord Mhoram's Victory would've lost a lot of it's emotional impact.
Now I'll also grant you that had technology progressed, it would've made for some very different books. If Lord Mhoram had ridden out of Revelstone in an M-1 Abrams, Lord Mhoram's Victory would've lost a lot of it's emotional impact.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Magic was there and accessible in some form for most of the books, not counting the time before Berek, the technological level of which I don't think has ever been found implausible by anyone.Cail wrote:Again, I'll grant that as well, but when the mysticism is stripped away, as Earthpower was, I believe that man would have to fall back on more secular technology.
After the Ritual of Desecration there were gravelingases and hirebrands. It is said in the books that due to the hardships of living post-Ritual the people of the Land forgot the lore that wasn't essential for survival. In that sort of situation they wouldn't be developing any new lore unless it had very immediate survival benefits, and thus any new development would likely have been a refinement of their existing knowledge.
Under the Sunbane there was the Clave going around and teaching everyone how to do proper blood sacrifices for instant gratification. Developing technology would have been far harder than just killing some people, and the benefits would have taken far longer to materialize. That is assuming a village had the right materials within its reach and smart people who would even imagine building a technological civilization in the first place, all the while living just at the edge of survival.
Spoiler
The situation is similar but slightly less extreme in the Last Chronicles. The Masters forbid travel,
Oh, and universal indoor plumbing is very much a 20th century thing (in the West). Mithil Stonedown had that, so they can't be all backwards.
Q: How many Old Lords does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None. Kevin casts a permanent light spell on the floor and lightbulbs are instantly obsolete.
Q: How many New Lords does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Fifty. One to change the lightbulb, plus forty-nine to spend centuries trying to figure out the relevant passage in Kevin's Wards.
Q: How many Clave members does it take to change the lightbulb?
A: One to cast the ritual, plus one luckless commoner to be the blood sacrifice, plus one Sunbane to actually change the lightbulb.
Q: How many white gold wielders does it take to change the lightbulb?
A: Only one, but there's always the risk that he/she might instead break every other lightbulb in the building.
Q: How many Elohim does it take the change the lightbulb?
A: Only one, but the building must also be on fire or he/she won't bother.
Q: How many ur-viles does it take to change the lightbulb?
A: Only one... only one wedge, that is.
Q: How many Stone-made monsters does it take to change the lightbulb?
A: None. Graa smash roof open!
(Believe it or not, but there was a point to these lightbulb jokes. Remember Kevin's shining floor? The jokes just got a hold of me after that.)
I would say that's accurate during the time of the Clave ...Nerdanel wrote:...during the time the Earthpower has been accessible (not counting the early period with Berek and all) the Land has not been a nation but rather a collection of villages ruled over by a small elite which has a vested interest in keeping the villages divided from each others and easily manageable.
Spoiler
and the Masters
Nerdanel wrote:Spoiler
And as for the Masters, Liand said he hadn't noticed them growing older... although noticing this does raise a question of Liand's true age/whether the common people of the Land grow old really fast nowadays.
Spoiler
I assumed that just meant that in Liand's 20 or so years he would have noticed if someone aged from 20 to 40, 40 to 60, or whatever. We know, however, that the Haruchai are long-lived, so this is most likely just another instance of the Masters keeping the people of the land ignorant, rather than something about Liand.
They probably could learn to harness Earthpower to take the place of oil and electricity. But the real point is your earlier one - they don't even know that such things as tractors and engines exist, nor are they apt to care about such things.For example, in all likelihood they wouldn't have access to oil, so if they wanted a tractor it would have to burn ethanol or use steam power or have solar panels or something.
Spoiler
Certainly some of it is for storytelling convenience; as SRD also points out, Linden doesn't have a cellphone or pager in Runes. I suspect the same motivation applies to the Land...
SRD wrote:Spoiler
My primary reason was that I wanted to preserve the emotional tone of Linden's and Covenant's "real world": I didn't want to change too many of the terms and conditions of that reality. After all, the more I change the "real world," the more time I have to spend explaining it before I can get to the main event. ...
However, my "secret" purpose was to give Covenant's and Linden's "real world" a certain timelessness; a certain detachment from the social/political/technological details of our "present" (whenever that "present" happens to be). Putting it another way: I wanted the "real world" to appear seamless from story to story. Literally, of course, that's impossible: circumstances have to change in order to enable each new story. But in "tone" or "flavor" I've given it my best shot.
LOL!! Of course, Samadhi would've been driving a tricked-out Hummer, too.Cail wrote:If Lord Mhoram had ridden out of Revelstone in an M-1 Abrams, Lord Mhoram's Victory would've lost a lot of it's emotional impact.
And to bring this back on topic to the technology of the Giants...
Q: How many Giants does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: One, and they don't need a ladder. BUT... they have to have a Giantclave to discuss everything anyone has ever known about the history of lightbulbs first.
"History is a myth men have agreed upon." - Napoleon