Bakker's THE DARKNESS THAT COMES BEFORE

[Zarathustra]

I just finished the 1st book in the Prince of Nothing series (on Brinn's recommendation--thanks!). I have to say this is one of the best "new" fantasy series I've ever read. Not since Martin have I been this satisfied with a recent fantasy novel. It's encouraging to see authors still developing this genre, still finding significant and relevant things to say.

The comparison to Martin's SOIAF isn't due to any resemblance in terms of story or character--they're simply two authors of similar skill. Martin's series has more characters, and probably better characters on average. But this is only becasue of the sheer scope of his story, and the equal amount of attention he gives to all his characters. While Martin does more characters better, the main character of Bakker's story is orders of magnitude cooler than ANY Martin character. Kellhus. Wow. A monk-warrior-philosopher. I'm incredibly jealous of this character . . . it's something I wish I'd written myself. (My own main character is going in similar directions, though in a completely original way.) The way Bakker handles his training, insights, and dialogue grounds Kellhus in a way makes his fantastic abilities completely believable. He's also freakin' cool as a narrative technique: a character who can 'read' the hidden motives of every other character, telling us readers things about them through the perspective of another character, making these revelations simply part of the story, part of the process of Kellhus's exploration of his circumstances--rather than mere exposition. God, what a fantastic writing technique.

There are a few more characters that aren't on Kellhus's level, but are still very cool. I like the way Bakker handles the interplay of all their desires and plotting, how they are thrown together for reasons that arise out of their personal drives rather than necessities of the plot. The book's action follows a series of personal stories that--apparently by accident--converge into a complex, unified story. (Of course, Bakker arranges it this way, so it's not really accident; but he convincingly creates the illusion of entirely character-driven tale.)

As for the story, it's not as complex as Martin's (at least not yet). But it's definitely complex enough to keep me reading for more than just the cool characters. I like the sense that much more is going on than what's on the surface. And the "game" that all the major factions are playing. The Emperor's Indenture gambit was brilliant, as was the way it was defeated.

But the real beauty of this book lies with the Prince of Nothing himself, Kellhus. Bakker must truly be an intelligent man to write this character so convincingly. I really feel that Kellhus is Awake. I'm going to get the next book today and start reading it immediately. I can't recommend this book enough. Thanks again Brinn for the recommendation.

[Brinn]

Glad you enjoyed it Malik. The one thought I had after finishing this series is "Brilliant!". The remaining books are better than the first as the complexity builds and the characters grow and deepen. I'm very glad your enjoying "Prince" and I can't wait for you to read "Gates of Fire". Keep me updated as you progress!

[danlo]

Is there any connection between the 300 and Gates, Brinn?

[Farm Ur-Ted]

the main character of Bakker's story is orders of magnitude cooler than ANY Martin character. Kellhus. Wow. A monk-warrior-philosopher. I'm incredibly jealous of this character . . . it's something I wish I'd written myself.

These books sound pretty darn good; I'm going to have to hit them when I clear off my current slate of books to read. I'm a little worried about the "monk" part, though. Does this guy get laid at all? That's a key ingredient to being a great character for me.

[danlo]

I don't know if it's your post or you Av Ted! I, too, have been very interested in reading Bakker I'm almost up to this on my TBR list, it might push Vellum o/o the way...

[Zarathustra]

The "monk" description shouldn't invoke any religious or moral images. In fact, Kellhus is a kind of Nietzsche superman: someone beyond good and evil. I don't want to talk about his sex life, because either way, it would give away an important plot point near the end. But he's no prude. He has no problem using people to achieve his ends. In fact, his ability to master others via his special talents is one of the coolest things about him.

The "monk" part of his character has more to do with his training. He's like a student of transcendental meditation, learning to quiet his passions in order to find the "center" of his being, to master himself. Most people are slaves to their passions, stray thoughts, impulses. But his meditation has taught him to be the master of these aspects of his being, and from this mastery comes his ability to extend his mastery into events and circumstances. However, Buddhist meditation isn't so much about control as it is about detachment. . . so it's not exactly the same. He's an interesting mix of moral nihilism, monastic "spiritual" enlightenment, and martial arts.

[duchess of malfi]

Malik - hang on to your hat, bud. I thought that the second and third books were better written than the first. And I loved the first. Bakker becomes a more polished writer as he goes along.

[lucimay]

he's a pretty nice fella too. go on over to the Three Seas Board ya'll. last time i was there TTT hadn't come out and was being hotly discussed.

haven't been there much since i came here but Bakker comes around there on occasion to answer questions and chat.

[Brinn]

Danlo, No connection save for the story line. 300 was a graphic novel written by Frank Miller and is a great interpretation itself. It's done in broad strokes and the characters are fairly one-dimensional but the story carries the day. Gates of Fire is the asolute pinnacle of martial literature. Well written, great characters, emotional, moving, I can't heap enough praise on this book. If you haven't read it...Read it.

[[Syl]]

Don't bother with the Three Seas board. It's pretty much dead. Bakker hasn't been around since TTT came out (really busy with Neuropath, I guess), and there's far more spam than decent conversation.

[Warmark]

Reading it at the moment aswell, great book.

[duchess of malfi]

You are also in for a treat then, as you read this series for the first time.

I got frustrated with the first book, as the abrupt changes were a bit annoying to me. It seemed that everytime I really started getting into one character or situation or setting, it was abruptly pulled out from under my feet. Note that this is only a personal opinion, and I loved the book even though I was annoyed by it at times.

The author seemed to get a lot smoother in his transitions, etc. as you got futher along in the series. It just got better and better for me the further along I got.

[Zarathustra]

I'm glad to hear that it gets better as it goes. However, I never experienced any of the problems you mention, Duchess. There was never any part of the book that frustrated me. I enjoyed every page. Switching from character to character, or setting to setting, is done MUCH more in the Gap series. Did you experience similar frustration with that series, too? I know what you mean: the technique of multiple POVs is inherently jarring and creates tension simply in leaving a thread for a while. However, this is just part of the technique, and has little to do with the individual author. In fact, if the author is doing it right, he departs from a particular narrative thread at precisely that point which will generate the most tension: after a significant revelation, character decision, plot point, etc. Cliffhangers. It keeps the pages turning. I don't find it any more frustrating than the sensation of narrative tension in general.

[duchess of malfi]

No, I never found it jarring in either the Gap or Martin's ASOIAF. Do not know why it rubbed me the wrong way in this particular book, but it did. Loved it anyway.

We are in a golden age of fantasy folks, and this is one of the brightest new voices to lately emerge.

[Holsety]

I'm just idly guessing, but maybe it's because the Gap is sorta fragmented as it is

That is, you're jumping from character every chapter, with less pages between each jump whereas in Bakker's stuff (well, 1st book anyways) you're jumping between a few different characters for 30-40 pages, settling in, and then you jump to a different plot with different characters and pretty much no connection. Whereas in the Gap, you're ultimately dealing with 1 plotline; all the stuff with Dios, Fasner et al relates very obviously to the Morn and co plotline from the start.

[danlo]

I just finished the series and loved it, on the whole, I became very invested in the world and 3 or 4 of the characters. I found the middle of The Warrior Prophet a little choppy and the ending a little too hyper and confusing (as if there were a number of things the author assumed you already knew. However, the beginning of The Thousandfold Thought set, maybe 70% of my questions straight and the ending turned the series into masterpiece of course I refer to

Spoiler

Drusas telling everyone one and anyone to fuck the hell off

[Brinn]

Bravo. Glad you enjoyed it. Now read "The Judging Eye" and be prepared to be awed by "Cleric".

[Zarathustra]

I hate to disagree with the guy who brought this series to my attention, but I was not awed by "Cleric." I was awed by Bakker. TJE is indeed a much better book than the first three. But that didn't have much to do with Cleric for me. In fact, I don't really remember much about this character, except for the end. More a plot device than a character.

[Brinn]

Loved that character. Loved the mystery, the mythos, the spectacle. But I do agree with you Z, Bakker does awe me more! The prose is the real star of the book.

[SerScot]

But is Bakker a sexist?

*Runs*