Pressfield's GATES OF FIRE

[Zarathustra]

Alright, I've started on Brinn's second recommendation, Gates of Fire. It's a fictionalized retelling of the battle of Thermopylae at which 300 Spartans held off a couple hundred thousand invaders for many days.

Honestly, I'm having a more difficult time getting into this book than I did with Bakker's Prince of Nothing. I think it's the tone or style of having the story retold by the sole survivor. It reads like a memoir. While this device is appropriate for the subject matter--imbuing it with a sense of historic validity--it's not as immediate as a "straight" fantasy.

However, there is plenty to like about this book. The horror of invasion, the brutality which scars a young boy's life and sets him on his path to be a warrior--these are vividly retold. And the narrative distance from these events actually gives them weight and reality, as if the author is not trying to impress us with made-up spectacles, but actually recounting real events. There are insights here which seem so real that I wonder if the author was actually a soldier. It reminds me a little of Starship Troopers meets Enders Game.

There are many examples of fine writing, but this particular passage really moved me (and it's the whole reason I decided to post so soon). On page 53:

"I have heard it said that for the lover the seasons are marked in memory by those mistresses whose beauty has enflamed his heart. He recalls this year as the one when, moonstruck, he pursued a certain beloved about the city, and that year, when another favorite yielded at last to his charms.

For the mother and father, on the other hand, the seasons are numbered by the births of their children--this one's first step, that one's inital word. By these homely ticks is the calendar of the loving parent's life demarcated and set within the book of remembrance.

But for the warrior, the seasons are marked not by these sweet measures nor by the calendared years themselves, but by battles. Campaigns fought and comrades lost; trials of death survived. Clashes and conflicts from which time effaces all supercial recall, leaving only the fields themselves and their names, which achieve in the warrior's memory a stature ennobled beyond all other modes of commemoration, purchased with the holy coin of blood and paid for with the lives of beloved brothers-in-arms. As the priest with his graphis and tablet of wax, the infantryman, too, has his scription. His history is carved upon his person with the stylus of steel, his alphabet engraved with spear and sword indelibly upon the flesh."

I'm expecting this to get much better. I'll keep y'all posted!

[Brinn]

Excellent....Keep me updated!

[Zarathustra]

Well, the first quarter of the book was very slow. Frustratingly slow. And then a story developed. Kind of. It was more a loose connection of anecdotes of loosely connected characters, which slowly grew more connected as the book went on. That's fine. Especially since the anecdotes were all interesting and well-written.

But then the fighting starts. HOLY CRAP!

I'm just into the second day of fighting, but the first day alone was more intense than ANY battle sequence I've seen written. It easily outshines much larger battles, like those in Lord of the Rings. The detail--much, I assume is gleaned from historical facts--is mesmerizing. The way the Spartans fight together as a unit, using coordinated might to their advantage . . . I understand now why they were able to hold off such hordes with limited numbers. They use coordinated momentum, pressing forward with their shields in a rhythmic fasion, to break the enemy lines. Things like the shape of their shields and the length of their lances are details I never dreamed were important enough to turn the tide of a battle. But each of those crude weapons is a technology, and they were engaged in an arms race just like we are today. The Spartan's technology was simply better than most of those they faced.

I loved the speech given by the Spartan King. He's such a good character, that I wish he'd been present during the first 2/3 of the book. But I suppose that's consistent with the narrator's view of things.

I'm really into this book now, 250 pages later. Last night, I literally couldn't put it down--though I should have. It was past 1 in the morning. Thanks again Brinn on a great recommendation.

[Brinn]

DID YOU HEAR THAT DLB!!!!!

LOL...I think DlbPharmd is the only person to whom I've ever recommended this book, that hasn't loved it. He also thought it was slow and wasn't able to soldier on (pardon the pun) and finish the book. Maybe after he sees your review he'll think about giving it another try.

Anyway, glad your enjoying it Malik! I'd hate to tarnish my reputation with a bad recommendation.

I thought the beginning of the book was excellent in that it establishes the characters and life of the Spartans and invests you in the characters so that the emotional resonance of the battles in the latter parts of the book is that much greater. Although they fight like mythological heroes, or even comic book superheroes, the first part of the book shows you the lifestyle and culture that creates these fighting machines. You realize that these are not immortals but rather ordinary human beings raised in a martial culture, and tempered through harsh training and an unforgiving lifestyle. Once you are finished the book, look at it as a whole and let me know if your opinions have changed. I'll look forward to another update after you finish...Which will probably be tonight from what it sounds like! ;^)

[dANdeLION]

We may need to ban DLB, just in case.

[Brinn]

Should we give him one more chance dAN?

[Zarathustra]

Although they fight like mythological heroes, or even comic book superheroes, the first part of the book shows you the lifestyle and culture that creates these fighting machines. You realize that these are not immortals but rather ordinary human beings raised in a martial culture, and tempered through harsh training and an unforgiving lifestyle.

That's a point that I've been thinking about a lot lately (and I suspect will be one of the points I carry with me long after the book is finished). These men weren't superheroes . . . but then again, they were. What made them different was their devotion, conviction, and aspiration to perfection. Their debate on "the opposite of fear" was fantastic. They are on the eve of a battle which they don't expect to live through, and they're conducting a "Socratic" dialogue on the nature of courage. And the dialogue reads like a natural conversation, not a philosophical treatise. They really want to know the answer, because they will be faced with this question very soon in a life-and-death manner. But they don't want to know in order to merely stifle their fear; they want to know so that they can live up to the ideal to which they aspire. They want to be perfect soldiers, not perfect killing machines, but perfect men. Their particular task is to defend their country, and they want to face that task with nobility. They want to achieve in battle a "pious" mindset which allows them to at the same time forget their fear, but to remember their humanity. They don't want to be butcherers, nor cowards, but heroes.

[Fist and Faith]

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1922


I was also beyond enthralled by their discussions on fear. I typed out big passages of that stuff:
p210.ezboard.com/fahirashangarfrm18.showMessage?topicID=35.topic

The detail--much, I assume is gleaned from historical facts--is mesmerizing. The way the Spartans fight together as a unit, using coordinated might to their advantage . . . I understand now why they were able to hold off such hordes with limited numbers. They use coordinated momentum, pressing forward with their shields in a rhythmic fasion, to break the enemy lines. Things like the shape of their shields and the length of their lances are details I never dreamed were important enough to turn the tide of a battle. But each of those crude weapons is a technology, and they were engaged in an arms race just like we are today. The Spartan's technology was simply better than most of those they faced.

I thought this paragraph said much about this idea:

This process of arming for battle, which the citizen-soldiers of other poleis had practiced no more than a dozen times a year in the spring and summer training, the Spartans had rehearsed and rerehearsed, two hundred, four hundred, six hundred times each campaigning season. Men in their fifties had done this ten thousand times. It was as second-nature to them as oiling or dusting their limbs before wrestling or dressing their long hair...

[dANdeLION]

Should we give him one more chance dAN?

Well, he did inform us greater mods that Menolly is now Green, so sure, as long as he reads the freaking book and loves it!

[Zarathustra]

[Caution: this is going to get political and philosophical. I can't help it. If I'm going to be honest about how the book affected me, I have to go there.]

Alright, Brinn was correct. This book is one of the best I've read in years. Granted, I don't read much fiction these days. But if I could find more books like this, I'd be reading all the time.

The payoff was enormous. The 1st half is definitely worth the wait. The battles are incredible, gruesome, and believable. But they are just the stage for a story to be told--as they should be. It's how the men comport themselves through this struggle that touched with me. The reasons they were doing this, and chose to keep doing this. It's all about freedom. An unwillingness to let fear of death make you a slave.

That's what it's all about: each of us is going to die. This is the one fact of our future that we can predict with certainty. You know nothing else but that. It's the defining truth of your existence. Or, it should be, if we would face life authentically. Most of the time we are all ignoring it, going through our lives as if the endpoint is retirement, not oblivion. We don't want to face it, and not simply because death is scary, but because we don't want to face the responsibility of our living. What are you doing with your time? What kind of person have you made of this bundle of consciousness and emotion you call a self? Is it something others would call "noble?" Are you worthy of the freedom which each conscious human possesses, or do you give it up in myriad ways each day out of innumerable fears you don't want to face?

Personally, I think death is too abstract to fear. I don't really believe we fear nothingness (aside from the pain of getting there). The biggest fear is that our life is our own responsibility. You have put yourself where you are now with your own choices. Whatever you don't like about your life, it was always your responsibility to chose how to react to it. Did you let facts determine you, or did you determine how to react to the facts of your life?

For the Greeks during this time, the Persian king wanted to make them all slaves. And they were promised to be made comfortable slaves. They wouldn't be ruled harshly. They'd be given riches and commerce. They'd be given "honor" as his most worthy subjects. His offer reminds me of the life of an American worker/consumer. We're passified in our daily slavery with electronic gifts and banal entertainment while we're "chained" to our couch by our own indifference and complacency.

But these Greeks valued self-determination so highly that they would give up themselves rather than have another rule them or seduce them with comfort and riches. Indeed, self-sacrifice was the highest form of self-determination, because they disdained their own physical security so thoroughly, they could be greater than their fear of a painful death. Fear is produced by the body, the Spartans teach. It is through the body that others may make you a slave to your own body. That's the key. You're never a slave to someone else, even when they hold you in chains. You're always a slave to the pain the whip causes on your back. You dance to the strings of your own nervous system, regardless of who holds those strings. It is through surrendering to your own pain and fear of physical harm that you choose to allow others to command you. Every slave is a voluntary slave. Always. It is because they didn't want the whip--or death--that they heed their "master's" call.

America prides itself on its freedom, but compared to those Greeks, I don't think we really understand this word we love to use. I think we are no longer the kind of people who love freedom this dearly. I'm not talking about our soldiers. Of course they are fighting and dying (whether or not you think it's for our freedom is another issue). I'm talking about the spoiled citizens who are "anti-war," who care what other countries think of us, who want to ask the U.N.'s approval for our actions, who look to the courts of other countries to inform us on our own laws, who want the government to pay for their housing, food, healthcare, drugs, education, etc. We want everyone else to make our decisions for us, to take care of us, so we can get back to our ipods and TV shows. Compare the Greek mothers who bear the sacrifice of their sons without tears, in order to show the rest of their country that nothing, not even the loss of their husbands and sons will break them, to give their fellow citizens courage--compare this to Cindy Sheehan and those who supported her. Compare this to those who want to "support the troops" by having them admit defeat and retreat. That's not supporting the troops. That's supporting your husbands and sons. That's supporting your own grief, selfishness, and fear of loss. Troops are men who kill people and attain victory. Supporting the troops means bearing their deaths with dignity and strength, not protecting them from death (something you can't protect ANYONE from). Their job is to die for their country, if necessary. That's what a soldier is. Reading this book makes me think we are a nation of cowards. It makes me think of Mogadishu, and the soldiers who were angry when their commander-in-chief forced them to surrender after losing 18 men--thus telling the world that we're scared to sustain loss, scared of 3rd world thugs. We are no longer willing to sacrifice. The richest country in the history of the world is terrified of the cost of living.

This is how the book affected me. It made me look at my own life, and my own time. It made me respect those long-dead men who, up until now, were merely characters in a story told in textbooks. I don't feel worthy of their example. I want to be a better person. I want to help my fellow humans be better people.

That's a powerful experience to have from reading a novel.

[dANdeLION]

Yeah, that's pretty much how that book affected me, too. Nice post, Malik.

[Fist and Faith]

ka - ******BOOM******
Yeah, that's a heck of a post, Malik!! Extremely nice!!!! That's why we all read books! If we weren't moved to powerful thoughts and feeling, we wouldn't bother reading. It's not always as profound as the experience you just had, that others of us had from this same incredible book, but when it is!!

Alright, Brinn was correct. This book is one of the best I've read in years.

Brinn is da bomb!!! There should be a Watchie for the person who introduces the rest of the Watch to the best book. The Brinn Award.

That's what it's all about: each of us is going to die. This is the one fact of our future that we can predict with certainty. You know nothing else but that. It's the defining truth of your existence. Or, it should be, if we would face life authentically. Most of the time we are all ignoring it, going through our lives as if the endpoint is retirement, not oblivion. We don't want to face it, and not simply because death is scary, but because we don't want to face the responsibility of our living. What are you doing with your time? What kind of person have you made of this bundle of consciousness and emotion you call a self? Is it something others would call "noble?" Are you worthy of the freedom which each conscious human possesses, or do you give it up in myriad ways each day out of innumerable fears you don't want to face?

You remind me of my Dissection of The Spoiled Plains:

This is where we see what two of the greatest characters of all literature have learned – the answers they’ve found to all their pain – the meaning of their lives – the things they cling to when all else is gone. (OK, Mhoram’s not in this chapter, so I’ll allow other parts to be considered the climax also. ) When they look into the future – the very near future – and see a strong possibility of death, the things they speak about here are the things that give them the strength to face that possibility. Whether in a few days, decades, or centuries, they will certainly die. Yes, even the former Bloodguard and the long-lived Giant. But the amount of time they have left is less important than the fact that they now understand themselves, that they are no longer worried that they are doing the wrong thing, that they have found some measure of peace. Living well for a day is better than living badly for a century. And now they know how to live well.

[Brinn]

Now that you've finished it Malik and looking at it as an entire work, do you feel that the detail at the beginning of the book was an integral part of the emotional payoff towards the middle and the end?

In other words, should DLB FINISH THE DAMN BOOK or continue to live in ignorance of the greatness of this work?!?!?

[dANdeLION]

DLB should finish what he started, or suffer the wrath of Jay's Ban Stick.

[Zarathustra]

He most definitely should finish it. I suppose the 1st half was necessary--though it's difficult to make that argument. The boy's experience of getting his hands mutilated hardly seem to affect the outcome at all. His cousin's experiences do add a little to the 2nd half, but that's not where the dramatic tension lies.

The meat of the story lies in those men who sacrificed their lives, and their women who were left afterward. I'd much rather have had more of Leonidas than stories of Spartan training.

Once this book got going, I liked how themes were woven into the text. It seemed to start with the "what is the opposite of fear" dialogue, and ran throughout the rest of the book. I really like every speech Leonidas gave. I liked when they saw their foe approaching, near enough to see the whites of their eyes, and he turns to ask one of his men, "Do you hate them?" I could imagine this as a scene in a movie, with hordes of screaming foes approaching in slow motion, very near, while the King slowly turns to ask this question of character. Dionekes (or whomever he asked) replies that he does not hate them. THAT'S what makes the Spartans "superhuman." They are doing a job required of them, not killing orcs because orcs deserve to die.

I really like the "multiple" endings, the last handful of chapters that were a couple pages long apiece. Each one was like the final few notes of a great symphony. Each one had just the right beat, just the right tone. It closed the novel magnificently.

[dlbpharmd]

Should we give him one more chance dAN?

Well, he did inform us greater mods that Menolly is now Green, so sure, as long as he reads the freaking book and loves it!

Greater mods? GREATER MODS?! Just for that, I'll re-start the book, and this time I'll finish it!

[Brinn]

Bravo Don!!!

[Fist and Faith]

I'd much rather have had more of Leonidas than stories of Spartan training.

Gotta disagree with you here. Not that Leonidas' speeches weren't incredible!!! Holy cow! But the training!!!! That little boy who showed them contempt for the flesh.

And these two moments...

Spoiler

"There is something I must tell you. When Leonidas selected you for the Three Hundred, I went to him in private and argued strenously against your inclusion. I thought you would not fight."
"I know," Alexandros' voice ground through his cinched jaw.
Polynikes studied him a long moment.
"I was wrong," he said.
He moved on.

and

Spoiler

"He was the best of us all."

would have been nothing without having seen the "difficulties" between Polynikes and Alexandros during training.

[Stutty]

GAH! I want to spend hours replying to this thread, but I have just a few minutes as I prepare for our Mediterranian cruise tommorow (oh my, did that sound like I was bragging )

I just barely skimmed this thread, and I have three comments.

My god Gates of Fire is an amazing book.

Unfortunately, where I couldn't put down GoF, I couldn't finish Tides of War.

And re: freedom/Greeks/America/love. Lest we not forget that with all the Greek speeches of freedom, it was not freedom for all. It was freedom for the aristocrats only. There were many not so free in the lower classes, not to mention the number of slaves.

did I mention I was going on a cruise?

stutt

[Brinn]

Some of his others are good but still fall short of the Masterpiece that is "Gates". I'm thinking of "The Afghan Campaign" and "Last of the Amazons".