The Elohim - a question from GI

[burgs]

I thought this was interesting, and hope to see some comments:

Kevin: Mr Donaldson,

In The One Tree, when the Quest first encounters the Elohim, Daphin greets them with the lines, "You are the Sun-Sage. / You are not."

I cannot help but believe that this is very significant, by the simple fact of its inclusion in your story. The Elohim, whose "vision does not lie", were somehow misinformed, and surprised at finding themselves so; they had to do some quick thinking to put a plan together. But I cannot figure out what overarching purpose this detail in the story serves, what subsequent events in the narrative depend on it.

I've come to conclude that must be be a clue to the Elohim's character, that it is representative of something that they lack. (And which Covenant and Linden ultimately do not.)

Am I on the write track? Can you elaborate on this point?

SRD Replies:

First things first. The statment, "You are the Sun-Sage," is addressed to Linden. "You are not" is addressed to Covenant. Of *course* this is significant. Everything the Elohim do from this point in the story on revolves around the fact that the Sun-Sage and the white gold wielder are not the same person (who from their perspective should be Linden). If I haven't made that plain in the course of the story, I've done my job pretty badly.

The question, as I see it, is not, "Why do the Elohim care which one of them is the Sun-Sage?" but rather, "Why didn't they already know?" Being so, well, Elohim and all. And I reply that the Elohim *could* have known, but that they're often too self-absorbed to pay much attention to events/characters/etc. in the larger world. If you really believe that you are "equal to all things," how much time are you actually going to spend studying the details? Hence the fact that the Elohim can be taken by surprise--on some subjects.

[stormrider]

Not sure whether I'm actually addressing the issue properly, but...

I think the problem with the Elohim is that they assumed that the Sun-Sage and the ring-wielder were supposed to be the same person from the beginning. In a sense, they looked too far into the future. In their arrogance (if one can call it that), they didn't bother to think about what might have happened before the Sun-Sage/ring-wielder fought the Sunbane. Like SRD said, they predicted the end-result but ignored the details. Yes, I think it does shed some light on the nature of the Elohim.

They ended up being right, of course -- Linden got the ring. But it probably never occurred to them that there would ever be a time when the Sun-Sage and the ring-wielder would be separate. After they discovered that they were two different people, they acknowledged that perhaps there was going to be a merger or a death, which would enable Linden to use the ring. Findail followed the company around, harassing Covenant in an attempt to make him give up his ring. It was good that he was there, because TC probably would have destroyed the Arch of Time at some point if Findail hadn't warned him; but he never accomplished what he had set out to do. In the end, it didn't matter, but the Elohim apparently assumed that they had to somehow intervene to ensure that the events forseen in their "vision" came to pass. They obviously didn't realize that if they just left things alone everything would turn out the way they had predicted.

[IrrationalSanity]

I wonder if this isn't foreshadowing something to come. Doesn't the attitude of being "equal to all things" sound somewhat familiar?

[Relayer]

That's a good point.

RUNES SPOILER BELOW....

Spoiler

I'm also wondering if Linden's being the Sun-Sage still has any relevance. I don't think we ever see the word in Runes. The definition of it was something like "the person who can control the Sunbane" which of course is gone. But is there more to it? Or, what are the implications, and how will the Elohim treat her, if she is no longer the Sun-sage?

[wayfriend]

Darn it!

I was hoping for an answer to this question, and instead I was dodged!

I was hoping to find out why Donaldson added that to the story. Instead I got an explanation as to how it is plausible. Okay, it's plausible --- but why was it in the story?!?! In other words, what difference does it make if the Elohim are surprised vs they knew it all along?

Maybe I asked it wrong.

[Zarathustra]

Wayfriend, it's a good question. I, too, have found Donaldson's answers frustratingly condescending, gently implying that we readers haven't read carefully enough by this "maybe I didn't do my job properly" line. Sure, like he actually believes that.

In no way were you asking, "Why do the Elohim care which one of them is the Sun-Sage?" I didn't get that from your question at all.

Sure, we naturally spend a lot more time framing our questions than he does reading them, but come on, 1000s of people are going to be looking at these answers in detail. We're obsessive geeks. If he's going to publicly respond, he should at least do us the courtesy of reading the question carefully.

With that said, I think you did actually get an answer of sorts. The meat of your question seems to be: "I've come to conclude that must be be a clue to the Elohim's character, that it is representative of something that they lack." And he did say: "And I reply that the Elohim *could* have known, but that they're often too self-absorbed to pay much attention to events/characters/etc. in the larger world. If you really believe that you are "equal to all things," how much time are you actually going to spend studying the details?"

So the "something they lack" is the humility of being mortal. They are arrogant and they sometimes overlook stuff. I suppose that's an interesting point, but I was hoping for more--and I assume you were, too. You didn't need Donaldson to tell you they were arrogant and sometimes shortsighted. You wanted to know what overarching purpose this served, and what implications this arrogance/short-sightedness has on the story. In my opinion, either there are no significant plot developments stemming from this arrogance, or it's a RAFO issue. But it would have been nice if Donaldson had actually said that, instead of saying, "Of *course* it is significant," and then telling us something we already know, something which doesn't turn out to be significant in the story thus far. Frustrating.

[Dawngreeter]

Malik23, I liked your answer better, and I agree. You guys should skip asking him questions if he's going to answer to thousands of die-hard fans like this. I think the question that came more to the forefront from this is, "is SRD like the arrogant, condescending Elohim?" I think so. In my neck of the woods, this is what's called being 'jacked around'. Stone me if you will.

[burgs]

I agree with Dawngreeter. As much as I enjoy SRDs writing, he can really be an ass at times. This is one of those times.

My intent in posting, though, wasn't to showcase him being said ass; rather, to initiate discussion on the question of the Elohim.

It's a good question - if the "Sun Sage" has any meaning now. Apparently it meant the person who would destroy the Sunbane, etc., but...RUNES SPOILER

Spoiler

if she's still around, and still has both the white gold and the Staff, what does that mean now?

[iQuestor]

I think that the Elohim's attitude of being equal to all things resonates with the haruchai epitath -- we suffice. I think both those supposed altruisms have been disproven. When a character or race in TC is set up to be infallible, take cover.

I didnt think Donaldson was being an ass, I think he can't put as much though into the answers as we do the questions, and something is likely lost in the translation and it comes across in his answers.

this being said, I dont think we can hold him to a higher standard than the rest of us; I still enjoy the GI and will continue to read it.

[burgs]

Oh sure, I'll continue to read it as well. I thought SRD was an arrogant sod when I met him 23 years ago, but I still held my breath for Runes for 21 years.

[wayfriend]

Yikes.

Maybe he just was in a rush or something.

Malik, you could be right, but it's kind of a let down if the answer really is, the Elohim just made a mistake. It curtails any chance of finding a meaning in it. And as for pointing out their essential arrogance, well, that's something which is already made evident abundantly elsewhere.

It's probably good to know that the Elohim can be wrong about things.

[Zarathustra]

For the record, I wasn't trying to say Donaldson was being an ass, but just a tad condescending, careless, and not very helpful.

[burgs]

I was saying that he was being an ass, though.

[aliantha]

Meh. It's hard to convey "tone of voice" in an e-mail format, y'know. Maybe SRD has as much trouble with it as we mere mortals do.

Going back to the original question: This may be one of those "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" things. There may not be anything deeper there than just a recognition on the Elohim's part that the Sun-Sage and the ring-wielder weren't the same person -- sort of an "oh, shit" moment, Elohim-style.

[burgs]

I'll accept that. My issue with him, though, is that he was an "arrogant sod" and a bit of an ass when I met him in person, and he's never been terribly magnanimous when it comes to discussing the work of his peers (especially earlier in his career), so perhaps I read his comments through a filter.

Either way - as you said, meh. I still love the guy's work.

[dlbpharmd]

I'll accept that. My issue with him, though, is that he was an "arrogant sod" and a bit of an ass when I met him in person, and he's never been terribly magnanimous when it comes to discussing the work of his peers (especially earlier in his career), so perhaps I read his comments through a filter.

Either way - as you said, meh. I still love the guy's work.

In the recent podcast, SRD ripped the book "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova. I was really surprised by how vehement he was. He actually said "Don't but this book."

[burgs]

I enjoyed The Historian immensely. It had its flaws, but so does SRD. Given the length of the book, and his slow reading speed, I'm surprised he read it.

Now I have to listen to that podcast.

[Farm Ur-Ted]

Oh sure, I'll continue to read it as well. I thought SRD was an arrogant sod when I met him 23 years ago, but I still held my breath for Runes for 21 years.

When I first read The Real Story 15 years or so ago, after reading the author's notes at the end, I had a similar reaction. I didn't really enjoy the book, and the author's note kind of put me off the series. I had FK, but never read it (I did tackle the Gap series in total earlier this year, but skipped the end of TRS). I just thought after reading it, get over yourself, dude.

I do like reading TGI, though.

[burgs]

In the recent podcast, SRD ripped the book "The Historian" by Elizabeth Kostova. I was really surprised by how vehement he was. He actually said "Don't but this book."

He gave away the ending. As a writer, he should know better. I'm a little surprised that he didn't get more out of the ending than he did. I found his interpretation to be incorrect.

Never would have guessed he would sound like that. I guess back in '83 I was so completely starstruck that his voice didn't register with me. (Just the arrogance... )

[Dirty Whirl]

I don't think that he was being arrogant or anything. I didn't understand your question wayfriend, and thought you meant what SRD thought. I thought that in the books the elohim see heaps of things when they want to, but that its never really said that theyre omniscient.
Maybe im just stupid though.
...
(Thats intentional)