Lena Topic

Post by **Covenant_Fan** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:23 pm

I'm new here, but I read the Lena question and the responses, and frankly, I think I see a lot of strong negative emotional response to what is actually a very interesting questions (even if poorly phrased). I'm a Christian, and I believe that we can sin in our thoughts. But a sin by deed is worse than a sin by thought. If I have an affair with my neighbor's wife, this is certainly more troublesome and sinful than simply fantasizing about having an affair with my neighbor's wife. How many men out there have thought about what it would be like to have relations with a stranger that you see on the street? this is wrong, but haven't we all done it? How many of you have fantasized about this? Ok, so take it one step further, and fantasize in a dream. If Thomas Covenant really believed that he was dreaming, then is he guilty of raping Lena, or is he merely guilty of fantasizing about raping Lena?

So back to the poll: If you were to answer the poll "Yes," are you admitting to being a closet rapist, or are you merely admitting that you might fantasize about something evil? And are there mitigating circumstances here? Is the fact that you have been impotent for a number of years perhaps a mitigating factor when you fantasize about something evil?

Just some thoughts.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:25 pm

Good thoughts, Covenant Fan. However, *if* you have read the Second Chronicles, it is basically said, I believe, that the Land does in fact exist, and this is NOT a dream....

Post by **Earthfriend** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:50 pm

Also, perhaps not all would agree with you that merely fantasizing about 'having relations' with a stranger is 'wrong'. I for one, see little harm in fantasy...

Post by **[Syl]** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:17 pm

I agree with Earthfriend. If I believed in the concept, I'd most likely be going to Hell for a lot of Walter Mitty moments (mowing down people with a Howitzer... seriously, if you and your five friends really need to converse, can't you do it someplace other than right in the middle of a major walkway?... or people who can't drive... how many times have I fantasized about being able to launch guided missles from my car?).

I see what Covenant did in the same light as I see the schizophrenic guy who pushed someone in front of a train. Yes, it's a wrong, reprehensible act, but it needs to be properly understood and treated (something TC had to pretty much do for himself... another reason why TC is my personal hero).

Which further illustrates my point that leprosy (or any disease... cancer, alcoholism, et al) needs to be considered from a psychological/emotional standpoint as much as a physiological/corporeal one.

Post by **Covenant_Fan** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:58 pm

Interesting that I and several others are responding intelligently to the "Lena" question, while the first 10 or so responses to Severian's post were so shrill. Maybe the recent posters were able to get a good night's sleep. . .

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:02 pm

Maybe that's because you're not making jokes about a woman being raped?

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:04 pm

Yeah exactly.

Post by **Severian** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:06 pm

Finally! Thank you, Covenant_Fan and others, for the intelligent posts. I was beginning to think that all I was going to get was reactionary responses. If we can't discuss any topic intelligently, then what's to point?

I can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who begins a response with "I have a friend who was raped, so I WON'T DISCUSS THIS!! AND YOU'RE BAD FOR BRINGING UP THE TOPIC!!!"

My thoughts are that if I were Covenant, and had his condition, and suddenly found myself in his situation, and I really thought I were dreaming, I would probably react the same way. That doesn't make me a saint, I know. But at least it's an honest reaction.

I also think that if I were to have Covenant's experience of remaining in the Land, I would probably start to beleive that it was real, and I think that the guilt of what I'd done to Lena would drive me over the edge. So my answer is "Hell, yes!", but it would later drive me insane.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:08 pm

Wow. The quality of posts here at Kevins Watch has seriosuly declined lately.

Post by **Prince of Amber** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:08 pm

mmmm...., Interesting. The whole topic has been discussed a number of times, and quite rightly - it is after all fundamental to the whole story. My problem was with the crass way the question was posted. I have no worries at all with the discussion and it looks like we've started it up again here, I look foward reading some fresh views and opinions in the morning (after a good nights sleep

)

Post by **[Syl]** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:32 pm

Seriously, let's not drag a locked topic into a new one and get into a flame-war. This is a worthy subject, but one that needs to be handled with some delicacy.

In my dreams I've done things that are probably almost as bad as what TC did, so, no, I can't quite point the finger. Yes, I did feel guilty when I woke. If I ever get the lucid dreaming thing down, yeah, I'll probably exercise some god-like hedonist powers, but when all the chips are down, it's really a question between you and your conscience.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:36 pm

Severian, the problem is not the topic. It has been discussed here many times. There are many other threads devoted to exactly this topic, as you would see if you bothered to look. The problem was the crude way in which it was brought up. How can you treat rape as a joke and then expect it to be taken well?

Junibeth · Post by **Junibeth** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:52 pm

Guys, I'm a lurker, and have never posted before. But I have to step in now and tell all of you that you're all being played for a fool: "Severian" is a troll. In fact, he may even be a regular on the board who is just trolling for fun.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:09 pm

Yeah, you're probably right. But does it matter?

Post by **kevinswatch** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:22 pm

Yeah. Severian, I think the reason why people got upset, as well as the reason I locked the topic, was simply because of the way you stated your question. The word "done" has many not so nice connotations, and sort of degrades women. But it is a very interesting topic, for why else would SRD have his main character, a character who in the end you are supposed to become attached to in some way, be a rapest?-jay

Post by **amanibhavam** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:58 pm

Mind you, I never belonged to the people who throw the book in the corner when they reach the rape scene: I've always regarded Lena's rape as an allegory of what has done to the Land, and I am not outraged that SRD used 'rape' at all. But there are ways of culturedly and intelligently discuss things and INHO this was not one of them.

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:28 pm

In my time at the watch there have been at least two, but probably more, serious discussions of the way rape of Lena. The conclusions were as I recall them:

The scene is possibly the most important single scene for understanding Thomas Covenant. This is because in many ways it is the first, and only, place where he completely takes leave of his senses (so to speak). It is also the one thing which starts most of the other character incidents in the first chronicles. The people directly affected by it are: TC, Lena, Atiaran, Trell, Triock, Elena. Basically this scene shapes all the actions of these characters all through the first chronicles and thus the consequences of this could well be said to spring from that.

Post by **Hellfire** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:16 pm

Exactly.

I didn't like the negativity from all the post in that topic either but I could not help but contribute a little. I got what he was saying in the poll(if you were convinced it was a dream, would you have comitted the crime?) but it was phrased in a disgusting and unintelligent manner which has yet to be apologized for.

Really- did he even consider the female population of this board????? We should all be more considerate when discussing such things.

I haven't even been here that long and I am already sick of talking about Lena's rape. Guess I shouldn't even be posting this.

But the great thing about boards like this is that you have more than enough opportunity to restore charactor when it is in question. I hope to read better post by Severian in the future.

Post by **danlo** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:15 pm

Hellfire said:

but it was phrased in a disgusting and unintelligent manner which has yet to be apologized for

That's the whole point Severian!!!--It took kevinswatch 2 get me back on this board--and I really resent the potshot u took at me in ur post above. No u don't get 2 discuss this issue w/me in an intelligent manner after ur wording. Think about what u said!! It's horribly degrading 2 women. Think dammit! U're lucky he didn't ban u and u're lucky I don't kno where in Dallas u live...

(I don't even kno y I'm acknowledging the existence of the damm thread--2 paraphase Syl loosely (and I do mean loosely) it's absurd)

Post by **kevinswatch** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:38 pm

Yes, I think Danlo is right, an appology should be made, Severian. It's the only decent thing to do after offending other members here at the Watch. Danlo and Duchess are obviously upset. If you actually want to be a respected member at this Forum, you know what you have to do.

But to Danlo and Duchess, there is no need to be so overreactive about this whole thing. It's one post by one person. If he truely isn't sorry and won't appologize, then I'll ban him. I'll delete any more offensive topics, including this one. In other words, I'll take care of the problem. That's what Admins and Mods are for. But running from the problem isn't the solution. If you want to leave the Watch, then go, but don't say it's because of this event, because that's just silly. I'm here to make you guys happy, so you need to talk to me when we have problems. I wouldn't want to lose cool members such as yourselves. We can work this out.

-jay

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