A question about the ending. . .

[Dagonet]

Just finished reading Fatal Revenant, loved it, and admit with some embarrassment that I'm too lazy to look up an answer for myself:

Does the Wurm of the World's End, in and of itself, actually destroy the Arch of Time when roused, or does it simply scour the world clean before going back to sleep? If the latter, then there might conceivably be a brief interval in which the Worm could be directed at the Land's enemies before it consumed everything else.

Cheers,

Dagonet

[Fist and Faith]

"Here the Despiser cannot fail! If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos. And if the ring-wieder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time."

So the Worm doesn't destroy the Arch, but it frees Foul nonetheless.

[A Gunslinger]

"Here the Despiser cannot fail! If the Worm is roused, the Earth will end, freeing Despite to wreak its vengeance upon the cosmos. And if the ring-wieder attempts to match his might against the Worm, he will destroy the Arch of Time."

So the Worm doesn't destroy the Arch, but it frees Foul nonetheless.

It is my opinion that Anele will draw a nearly lost memory of creation deep from the bowels of the earth, allowing Jeremiah to fashion a prison (A new Arch of time) that will hold the Depsiser forever.

It's not as though the worm will complete its destruction in a day or two...TC and Lindedn and trghe rest will have plenty of time to oppose all.

[Fist and Faith]

It is my opinion that Anele will draw a nearly lost memory of creation deep from the bowels of the earth, allowing Jeremiah to fashion a prison (A new Arch of time) that will hold the Depsiser forever.

Holy...!! What a great theory!! It would be amazing if Jeremiah's talent served a much larger purpose than what was discussed in FR!

[dlbpharmd]

So, is Infelice the Appointed Elohim?

[emotional leper]

So, is Infelice the Appointed Elohim?

God, I hope so. It'd finally be an end to her... whining?

[Lord Mhoram]

I have another question about the ending: did the power that Linden channeled through the krill destroy it? I was led to believe so from those final passages. Similarly so with the Staff and the white gold ring.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I have another question about the ending: did the power that Linden channeled through the krill destroy it? I was led to believe so from those final passages. Similarly so with the Staff and the white gold ring.

No, the Staff and the Ring did fall away to the ground beside her and the Krill lost it's light for a few moments but came back.

[Lord Mhoram]

Ah, thank you.

[A Gunslinger]

R ya silly? U can't kill the Krill!

[Damelon]

....
Does the Wurm of the World's End, in and of itself, actually destroy the Arch of Time when roused, or does it simply scour the world clean before going back to sleep? If the latter, then there might conceivably be a brief interval in which the Worm could be directed at the Land's enemies before it consumed everything else.

My guess is that between the Harrow and Infelice they will quiet the Worm down enough to avoid breaking the Arch right away. Though I suppose earthquakes will become part of the story.

[martyc]

Perhaps anele will read the rock of the isle of the one tree and discover how best to put the worm back to sleep? And of course, since this is probably the gutrock of the earth of whatever, learn some world saving lore to undo or imprison foul...

On the topic of wild speculation, the "manacles" the ur-viles made - for roger? or kastenessen? or maybe even thomas covenant himself....?? I reckon they'll bind roger's fiery hand and maybe turn him into the durance, and then kastenessen will get healed by linden (that rant Esmer said about bad guys not being bad at the start, and not necessarily being bad to the end) and.... and.... so much possibility!

Oh and i remember Lord Foul saying that the elohim now serve him, but don't realise it, or something like that, in Runes.... Hmmm maybe it's a good thing what Linden did in Andelain?

Oh and the theomach - he was the one who told Berek about the White Gold, so that's how he made those legends... but who gave Kasreyn the knowledge of white gold? Is the Theomach responsible for more meddling than we currently know of?

Lol totally hijacked this thread, my apologies, just had to get all these ideas off my chest. Also, Hi everyone! Love Kevin's watch, great fun reading what everyone else thinks is going on and realising all those little hints that i miss that other people have picked up.

[Ur Dead]

but who gave Kasreyn the knowledge of white gold?

Kasreyn was a mage bonded with a a croyel. Some of his rings he used for his magic were made from normal yellow gold. Plus being bonded with the croyel he had a longer than normal life. He could have found out about white gold from the croyel or even in his studies.

[Seppi2112]

I got the impression that he didn't *know* of the white gold per se, but he understood the nature of the material when he saw it and knew it could fix the impurities he had been forced to create.

[andyjames]

It is my opinion that Anele will draw a nearly lost memory of creation deep from the bowels of the earth, allowing Jeremiah to fashion a prison (A new Arch of time) that will hold the Depsiser forever.

i have a similar theory. Jeremiah is the creator. with the timelines being up for grabs in the last chronicles, i could see linden destroying the arch of time to defeat the worm, but jeremiah just builds it again in the past and the history of the land is repeated. effectively starting time over.

the info about jeremiah being able to make prisons is a huge clue that as far as i can tell only leads to him making the biggest prison of all: the arch of time.

[wayfriend]

I'm still of the opinion that the Worm and the Arch are just too sides of the same thing. So the Worm won't destroy the Arch, it is the Arch. But if the Earth is destroyed, the state of the Arch is moot. Foul is trapped by the Earth, not by the Arch. And the Arch's only purpose is to create a place for the Earth, to create the conditions which allow the Earth to be.

Someone, I think Infelice, said something to the affect that the Arch is the Wurd of the Elohim. Which underscores this point. (If you believe that the Wurd and the Worm are the same thing.) Such statements make an impression on me when I read them. I'll go and look for it.

However, if the Worm is actually roused (debatable), I feel sure that someone will sooth it back into rest.

The alternative (given that the story is still half over) involves things too wild to contemplate. I am only sure that time travel would be involved.

BTW: are we sure that it is Jeremiah, not the croyel, which has the door&trap powers? Or even Kastenessen? (He is a Durance, you know.)

[ScrapOSamadhi]

I think there is a timing issue here during the creation of the world which separates the two.

Back in LFB Lord Tamarantha described the creation legend thus:

First he built the arch of Time, so that his creation would have a place in which to be and for the keystone of that arch he forged the wild magic, so that Time would be able to resist chaos and endure. Then within the arch he formed the Earth. For ages he labored, formed and unformed, trialed and tested and rejected and trialed and tested again, so that when he was done his creation would have no cause to reproach him. And when the Earth was fair to his eye, he gave birth to the inhabitants of the Earth, beings to act out in their lives his reach for perfection-and he did not neglect to give them the means to strive for perfection themselves. When he was done, he was proud as only those who create can be.
"Alas, he did not understand Despite, or had forgotten it. He undertook his task thinking that perfect labor was all that he required to create perfection. But when he was done, and his pride had tasted its first satisfaction, he looked closely at the Earth, thinking to gratify himself with the sight-and he was dismayed. For, behold! Buried deep in the Earth through no will or forming of his were banes of destruction, powers virile enough to rip his masterwork into dust.
"Then he understood or remembered. Perhaps he found Despite itself beside him, misguiding his hand. Or perhaps he saw the harm in himself. It does not matter. He became outraged with grief and torn pride. In his fury he wrestled with Despite, either within him or without, and in his fury he. cast the Despiser down, out of the infinity of the cosmos onto the Earth.

That implies the Arch existed before the Worm as the Earth was formed around the Worm and that Foul was imprisoned afterwards as we knew.

And Pitchwife described the Elohim/Stars/Worm in TOT thus:

"It is said among the Elohim, whose knowledge is wonderous, and difficult of contradiction that in the ancient and eternal youth of the cosmos, long ere the Earth came to occupy its place, the stars were as thick as sand throughout all the heavens. Where now we see multitudes of bright beings were formerly multitudes of multitudes, so that the cosmos was an ocean of stars from shore to shore, and the great depth of their present solitude was unknown to them-a sorrow which they could not have comprehended. They were the living peoples of the heavens, as unlike to us as gods. Grand and warm in their bright loveliness, they danced to music of their own making and were content."

"But far away across the heavens lived a being of another kind. The Worm. For ages it slumbered in peace-but when it awakened, as it awakens at the dawn of each new eon, it was afflicted with a ravenous hunger. Every creation contains destruction, as life contains death, and the Worm was destruction. Driven by its immense lust, it began to devour stars.

"Perhaps this Worm was not large among the stars, but its emptiness was large beyond measure, and it roamed the heavens, consuming whole seas of brightness, cutting great swaths of loneliness across the firmament. Writhing along the ages, avid and insatiable, it fed on all that lay within its reach, until the heavens became as sparsely peopled as a desert."

"Yet the devoured stars were beings as unlike to us as gods, and no Worm or doom could consume their power without cost. Having fed hugely, the Worm became listless and gravid. Though it could not sleep, for the eon's end of its slumber had not come, it felt a whelming desire for rest. Therefore it curled its tail about itself and sank into quiescence.

"And while the Worm rested, the power of the stars wrought within it. From its skin grew excrescences of stone and soil, water and air, and these growths multiplied upon themselves and multiplied until the very Earth beneath our feet took form. Still the power of the stars wrought, but now it gave shape to the surface of the Earth, forging the seas and the land. And then was brought forth life upon the Earth. Thus were born all the peoples of the Earth, the beasts of the land, the creatures of the deep-all the forests and greenswards from pole to pole. And thus from destruction came forth creation, as death gives rise to life."

[wayfriend]

Someone, I think Infelice, said something to the affect that the Arch is the Wurd of the Elohim.

Ah. Here it is. I think.

"You vaunt yourself without cause, Elohim," retorted the Harrow. "Was not your Appointed Guardian of the One Tree defeated by the Theomach?"

"He was," admitted Infelice. "And in his turn, the Theomach was defeated. Though he strove to affect the Wurd of the Earth, he fell before one mere Haruchai. Thus our present peril is in part attributable to the Insequent."

Interesting choice of words there. What ak-Haru strove to affect was the Worm - to rouse it by giving combat. So the Wurd is the Worm, we knew that.

But then the Harrow replies

"You are clever, Elohim. You speak truth to conceal truth."

So Infelice is being tricky here. This must mean that the peril she seems to alude to - the actions we know of at the One Tree - are not the peril that she is really concerned with.

That peril is, as I now guess, the peril of the union of Brinn and the original Guardian via ak-Haru, into one being, with an Insequent joined in.

[earthbrah]

Firstly, thanks to ScrapOSamadhi for the quotes. They confirmed some things I had in my mind, things I'd posted in another thread. Preesh!

A Gunslinger wrote:

It is my opinion that Anele will draw a nearly lost memory of creation deep from the bowels of the earth, allowing Jeremiah to fashion a prison (A new Arch of time) that will hold the Depsiser forever.

andyjames wrote:
i have a similar theory. Jeremiah is the creator. with the timelines being up for grabs in the last chronicles, i could see linden destroying the arch of time to defeat the worm, but jeremiah just builds it again in the past and the history of the land is repeated. effectively starting time over.

Jeremiah is the creator? What??? Do you really mean that Jeremiah has the same power as THE creator, and in this sense is a creator himself? The nature of Jeremiah's power has yet to be fully explained, and it will be centrally significant to the resolution of this universe, of that I am certain.
I like the thought about Anele reading something in the gutrock of the Earth (the One Stone?) If what he learns from the stone is how this universe was actually created, then that knowledge might allow Jeremiah to focus his talent with a purpose (if he's ever freed from the croyel, that is).

Interesting thoughts...

[iQuestor]

Firstly, thanks to ScrapOSamadhi for the quotes. They confirmed some things I had in my mind, things I'd posted in another thread. Preesh!

A Gunslinger wrote:

It is my opinion that Anele will draw a nearly lost memory of creation deep from the bowels of the earth, allowing Jeremiah to fashion a prison (A new Arch of time) that will hold the Depsiser forever.

andyjames wrote:
i have a similar theory. Jeremiah is the creator. with the timelines being up for grabs in the last chronicles, i could see linden destroying the arch of time to defeat the worm, but jeremiah just builds it again in the past and the history of the land is repeated. effectively starting time over.

Jeremiah is the creator? What??? Do you really mean that Jeremiah has the same power as THE creator, and in this sense is a creator himself? The nature of Jeremiah's power has yet to be fully explained, and it will be centrally significant to the resolution of this universe, of that I am certain.
I like the thought about Anele reading something in the gutrock of the Earth (the One Stone?) If what he learns from the stone is how this universe was actually created, then that knowledge might allow Jeremiah to focus his talent with a purpose (if he's ever freed from the croyel, that is).

Interesting thoughts...

I dont think Jeremiah is the creator, because he wasnt yet alive when Thomas Covenant first entered the Land. SInce TC was approached by the Creator, I dont see how they can be the same. I do think Jeremiah will figure heavily in the last two books though.