, but if someone wanted me dead in the worst way; I would be just a little concerned on the "why".Longwrath's anger
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DoctorWaterGod
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Longwrath's anger
Did I miss something or did Linden ever confront Longwrath on why he wants to "slay" her? I know Longwrath is out of his mind, but I don't remember much discussion with anybody on Longwrath's obsession with "why" he wants her dead. I can think of many reasons why some readers want her dead , but if someone wanted me dead in the worst way; I would be just a little concerned on the "why".
, but if someone wanted me dead in the worst way; I would be just a little concerned on the "why".
It was definitely suggested that Longwrath bears the Earthsight that compelled the Search to act on Seadreamer's vision. His vision was awful, it being the Worm getting roused by Covenant extracting a limb from the One Tree. And he died to prevent the fulfillment of that vision.
I wonder if Longwrath indeed doesn't have some similar vision, only manifested differently. Something terrible is haunting him, driving him to sustain his madness. And he's Pitchwife's grandson (dang, them Giants live a long time!). Though this is a stretch, whatever vision he has could stem from that connection to Linden.
But, somewhere else on this site it was suggested that Longwrath seeks to destroy another female white gold wielder in the Land, namely Joan. It's just that his "vision" is blurry or confused. His blurry vision could be causing his madness. Or it could be an symptom of a scary connection that he has with Joan and her inherent madness...
I wonder if Longwrath indeed doesn't have some similar vision, only manifested differently. Something terrible is haunting him, driving him to sustain his madness. And he's Pitchwife's grandson (dang, them Giants live a long time!). Though this is a stretch, whatever vision he has could stem from that connection to Linden.
But, somewhere else on this site it was suggested that Longwrath seeks to destroy another female white gold wielder in the Land, namely Joan. It's just that his "vision" is blurry or confused. His blurry vision could be causing his madness. Or it could be an symptom of a scary connection that he has with Joan and her inherent madness...
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stormrider
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Re: Longwrath's anger
Yeah, I couldn't understand why she didn't seem more concerned about that. After her experience with Seadreamer, she understands the Earthsight and knows how real it is and how powerfully it can affect someone. If I just happened to be planning something really dangerous and extreme (like resurrecting someone), and suddenly someone with Earthsight came along with the express intention of killing me, I'd be worried. After seeing Seadreamer's distress as they approached the Isle of the One Tree and the subsequent almost-disaster, I would have thought Linden would be very concerned about the Earthsight compelling someone to slay her.DoctorWaterGod wrote:Did I miss something or did Linden ever confront Longwrath on why he wants to "slay" her? I know Longwrath is out of his mind, but I don't remember much discussion with anybody on Longwrath's obsession with "why" he wants her dead. I can think of many reasons why some readers want her dead
“...The conversations had a nightmare flatness, talking dice spilled in the tube metal chairs, human aggregates disintegrating in cosmic inanity, random events in a dying universe where everything is exactly what it appears to be and no other relation than juxtaposition is possible.”
“There are two kinds of sufferers in this world: those who suffer from a lack of life, and those who suffer from an overabundance.”
"Meantime we shall express our darker purpose."
“There are two kinds of sufferers in this world: those who suffer from a lack of life, and those who suffer from an overabundance.”
"Meantime we shall express our darker purpose."
I think Linden didn't question more about Longwrath for 2 reasons:
1) She wasn't surprised at all to find yet another being completely aligned against her until-then-unstated purpose. She was shocked to stumble upon some Giants, sure, but an unexplained power seeking to destroy her? Get in line!
2) It doesn't matter to her - she felt 100% backed into a corner and the only way out was to resurrect TC. All the mounting evidence that this is a BAD IDEA doesn't phase her b/c she has no other options she can conceive of.
It reminds me of the old early 90's Saturday Night Live skit - "Bad Idea Jeans" - remember that? Shot in fake-commercial style like those cheesy dockers-type commericals back then, bunch of guys sitting around talking while the camera cuts back and forth between them, not showing their faces but showing the jeans label - in this case "BAD IDEA"? One guy says "No, I didn't have a condom, but I figured, what the hell, when am I ever going to be in Haiti again?" - BAD IDEA! Another guy: "Sure he's my wife's ex-lover and is broke and on the run from the mob, but the guy just needs a place to crash for a while" - BAD IDEA!
I can see Linden in this ad... "So, I just figured I'd get all the Wildmagic and Earthpower I can summon up, run it through the 'ol Krill and resurrect the keystone of the Arch of Time, what's the problem?" - BAD IDEA!
1) She wasn't surprised at all to find yet another being completely aligned against her until-then-unstated purpose. She was shocked to stumble upon some Giants, sure, but an unexplained power seeking to destroy her? Get in line!
2) It doesn't matter to her - she felt 100% backed into a corner and the only way out was to resurrect TC. All the mounting evidence that this is a BAD IDEA doesn't phase her b/c she has no other options she can conceive of.
It reminds me of the old early 90's Saturday Night Live skit - "Bad Idea Jeans" - remember that? Shot in fake-commercial style like those cheesy dockers-type commericals back then, bunch of guys sitting around talking while the camera cuts back and forth between them, not showing their faces but showing the jeans label - in this case "BAD IDEA"? One guy says "No, I didn't have a condom, but I figured, what the hell, when am I ever going to be in Haiti again?" - BAD IDEA! Another guy: "Sure he's my wife's ex-lover and is broke and on the run from the mob, but the guy just needs a place to crash for a while" - BAD IDEA!
I can see Linden in this ad... "So, I just figured I'd get all the Wildmagic and Earthpower I can summon up, run it through the 'ol Krill and resurrect the keystone of the Arch of Time, what's the problem?" - BAD IDEA!
sweeeeeetIt reminds me of the old early 90's Saturday Night Live skit - "Bad Idea Jeans" - remember that? Shot in fake-commercial style like those cheesy dockers-type commericals back then, bunch of guys sitting around talking while the camera cuts back and forth between them, not showing their faces but showing the jeans label - in this case "BAD IDEA"? One guy says "No, I didn't have a condom, but I figured, what the hell, when am I ever going to be in Haiti again?" - BAD IDEA! Another guy: "Sure he's my wife's ex-lover and is broke and on the run from the mob, but the guy just needs a place to crash for a while" - BAD IDEA!
I can see Linden in this ad... "So, I just figured I'd get all the Wildmagic and Earthpower I can summon up, run it through the 'ol Krill and resurrect the keystone of the Arch of Time, what's the problem?" - BAD IDEA!
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DoctorWaterGod
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Yes, Linden doesn't seem to have a boat load of friends lately. But considering that a Giant who in past ages have been good-natured, trustworthy and almost incorruptible wants to obliterate Linden; I would think that she would ask more questions.
It will be interesting to hear more of the Giants storyline. What's the fascination with Longwrath's flamberge? Instead of tearing Linden apart with his bear hands, he needs his weapon?? And he'd denied entrance to Andelain???
It will be interesting to hear more of the Giants storyline. What's the fascination with Longwrath's flamberge? Instead of tearing Linden apart with his bear hands, he needs his weapon?? And he'd denied entrance to Andelain???
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High Lord Tolkien
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Romeo wrote:That reminds me - Longwrath is one of the characters I've been DYING to talk about! I thought he'd make the perfect spokesman for THOOLAH - maybe their candidate for the upcoming elections?
GOOD LORD!
How could I have missed that?
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Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
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iQuestor
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I think we should let him kill her then ask questions when he is calmer.
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Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
Korik's Fate
It cannot now be set aside, nor passed on...
It seems that what Cable Seadreamer saw at the start was the Sunbane, not the One Tree or the Worm. (He sees the danger clearly as they approach the Isle, but I don't think he sees it very clearly beforehand).
Linden's problem (I am re-reading RotE, slowly, and seeing a lot more this time) is that she doesn't ask the right questions. Longwrath is a particularly egregious example thereof.
(I do like the suggestion that he's seeing Joan, but not clearly, only as a female with a white gold ring, and of course everyone assumes that it's Linden -- did Covenant ever tell anybody in the Land about Joan, or at least in enough detail for the information to pass down among the Giants or the Haruchai)
Linden's problem (I am re-reading RotE, slowly, and seeing a lot more this time) is that she doesn't ask the right questions. Longwrath is a particularly egregious example thereof.
(I do like the suggestion that he's seeing Joan, but not clearly, only as a female with a white gold ring, and of course everyone assumes that it's Linden -- did Covenant ever tell anybody in the Land about Joan, or at least in enough detail for the information to pass down among the Giants or the Haruchai)
Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land... Only thus could I preserve the integrity of my creation.
All we know is that he wants to kill Linden - not Joan but Linden specifically - because he was drawn to her location, not Joan's. If it was the ring he was drawn to, Joan's exertion is both more frequent and stronger... and yet he finds Linden.
So whether its earthsight or a corruption by Foul, we don't know, but I don't buy the confusion angle. That's too DxM for me.
So whether its earthsight or a corruption by Foul, we don't know, but I don't buy the confusion angle. That's too DxM for me.
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Linden doesn't seem to have a boat load of friends lately
Huh?I'm guessing that is a joke, at least with refernce to the novels, because, unlike TC who earned frieds out of pity and who he was (white gold wielder and Berek second-coming), Linden has earned all her friends, having to prove herself every step of the way. That is why doubt, and self-doubt lay such a large part in these 3rd Chrons....
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Well, first of all, Longwrath is never definitely stated to possess Earthsight - Linden suspects his madness may have something to do with Earthsight because of his injury which reminded her of how Seadreamer had acquired his, but even the Giants say they originally thought it was Earthsight, but then wondered whether it could be something different due to Longwrath's madness. So it still COULD be that he was affected by Foul somehow.
However, I think that his urgent desire to kill Linden, along with the prohibition against entering Andelain, suggests that he knew something terrible would happen (probably TC's resurrection) and wanted to stop her. Which makes sense, since according to Infelice, the resurrection will rouse the Worm of the World's End. And even if it didn't - did anybody wonder what being back "in the flesh" would do to TC's connection to the Arch? Maybe having him resurrected is yet another snare of Foul's - by bringing him back to the flesh, he has become once again vulnerable and consequently has made the Arch vulnerable again?
Anyway, Linden's problem is her essential blindness, especially towards the end of FR, when she's decided what she will do despite Anele's, Hollian's, Sunder's and even Covenant's own warning - witness how she repeats the "Good cannot accomplished by evil means" mantra and then tells herself "then I'll assume my means are not evil". She is trying to justify her actions by taking the stance they are not evil, but that doesn't change their nature, after all.
The problem is that Linden doesn't ask questions - not that others are forthcoming with answers, admittedly. But she never asks why Longwrath wants her dead, she doesn't ask why Infelice is so opposed to letting her fulfill her purpose, she doesn't stop to wonder why someone commanded the Dead not to give her counsel... her desire to save Jeremiah (and therefore to resurrect TC) overrides any such considerations. She knows what she wants to do is dangerous and she knows - because she's been warned - that there's blackness in her, but she chooses to believe she's doing the good and right thing and anyway, all she cares about is her son. And when someone voices doubts, she hides, counterattacks, or derides them (witness how she derides Infelice, or how she sidesteps Stave's doubts)...
However, I think that his urgent desire to kill Linden, along with the prohibition against entering Andelain, suggests that he knew something terrible would happen (probably TC's resurrection) and wanted to stop her. Which makes sense, since according to Infelice, the resurrection will rouse the Worm of the World's End. And even if it didn't - did anybody wonder what being back "in the flesh" would do to TC's connection to the Arch? Maybe having him resurrected is yet another snare of Foul's - by bringing him back to the flesh, he has become once again vulnerable and consequently has made the Arch vulnerable again?
Anyway, Linden's problem is her essential blindness, especially towards the end of FR, when she's decided what she will do despite Anele's, Hollian's, Sunder's and even Covenant's own warning - witness how she repeats the "Good cannot accomplished by evil means" mantra and then tells herself "then I'll assume my means are not evil". She is trying to justify her actions by taking the stance they are not evil, but that doesn't change their nature, after all.
The problem is that Linden doesn't ask questions - not that others are forthcoming with answers, admittedly. But she never asks why Longwrath wants her dead, she doesn't ask why Infelice is so opposed to letting her fulfill her purpose, she doesn't stop to wonder why someone commanded the Dead not to give her counsel... her desire to save Jeremiah (and therefore to resurrect TC) overrides any such considerations. She knows what she wants to do is dangerous and she knows - because she's been warned - that there's blackness in her, but she chooses to believe she's doing the good and right thing and anyway, all she cares about is her son. And when someone voices doubts, she hides, counterattacks, or derides them (witness how she derides Infelice, or how she sidesteps Stave's doubts)...
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DoctorWaterGod
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Your right she does have to prove herself to have friends. In the previous chronicles the Land seemed to be a more friendlier. Besides the usual enemies, Linden doesn't have the Lords, villages of Stonedownor's and Woodhelvenniner's welcoming her. The Haruchai are mostly against her. The Insequent are questionable.
Maybe because of her motives and the state the Land is in, people are wary of her.
Maybe because of her motives and the state the Land is in, people are wary of her.
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wayfriend
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Donaldson strongly suggested that there was a similarity between Joan's madness and Longwrath's madness, correct?
Now, Joan's madness leads her to smash her head until it is bloody and create ceasures thereby. Whatever else you might call it, these actions are not desirable.
So why should Linden assume that Longwrath's actions represent anything that she should think about and wonder if they have any merit? He is mad.
Is it always necessary that every mad character in a book is disguising some grain of cosmic truth? There are too many mad characters in the Final Chronicles to think that they ALL must be harboring the cosmic secret to saving the universe.
Maybe Longwrath is onto something. But I don't blame Linden for not suspecting it. As CT said, Linden's heard nothing but "you're a menace" from every quarter since she got to the Land. It's not like Longwrath stands out in that regard. Which means two things - Linden isn't taken aback, and the author doesn't need a vehicle to make us wonder if Linden is a danger, he has a raft full of them already.
Finally, Linden is a bit pre-occupied with skurj. As soon as she loses the skurj, she hooks up with the Harrow and Infelice. She's planning what she will do with the krill. And Longwrath has split. So if Linden fails to miss a clue -- which she might very well be doing -- I don't think the author is having us believe she missed it from being lazy or dumb.
Now, Joan's madness leads her to smash her head until it is bloody and create ceasures thereby. Whatever else you might call it, these actions are not desirable.
So why should Linden assume that Longwrath's actions represent anything that she should think about and wonder if they have any merit? He is mad.
Is it always necessary that every mad character in a book is disguising some grain of cosmic truth? There are too many mad characters in the Final Chronicles to think that they ALL must be harboring the cosmic secret to saving the universe.
Maybe Longwrath is onto something. But I don't blame Linden for not suspecting it. As CT said, Linden's heard nothing but "you're a menace" from every quarter since she got to the Land. It's not like Longwrath stands out in that regard. Which means two things - Linden isn't taken aback, and the author doesn't need a vehicle to make us wonder if Linden is a danger, he has a raft full of them already.
Finally, Linden is a bit pre-occupied with skurj. As soon as she loses the skurj, she hooks up with the Harrow and Infelice. She's planning what she will do with the krill. And Longwrath has split. So if Linden fails to miss a clue -- which she might very well be doing -- I don't think the author is having us believe she missed it from being lazy or dumb.
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She's not lazy and not dumb -- it might be better if she were. Her problem is deliberate self-blindness to the truth.
Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land... Only thus could I preserve the integrity of my creation.
