The Continuity of Time

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I didn't see any one place where this has been discussed by itself, so here we go...

This is not the first time that an author has broached the subject of time travel, so some of us may have an easier time understanding (or misunderstanding ) the concept of temporal anomalies.

The way I see it happening in LCTC, time travelers are cautioned not to do anything which might have an inordinate (and assumedly devastating) impact on the history of the Land.

However, from the standpoint of history, it must be assumed that the actions of any time travelers in the past have been incorporated into and become part of the single history of the Land upon their return to their 'normal' time stream - any other explanation involves creating a new instance of reality for each historical deviation - which would be very messy to explain, a letdown to the audience, and in general is not a good creative direction to head.
The Theomach and the Mahdoubt, both experienced time-travellers, are very concerned about not having dramatically a bad impact to history through the inordinate actions of the travelers, for the results would destroy the Arch of Time and thus free the Despiser.

So, one must deduce from this line of thinking that the knowledge/assistance that Berek gained from Linden & Co. and the Theomach has become a (well-hidden) part of the Land's history. In other words, had the Theomach not intervened and taught Linden and Berek the Seven Words in the distant past, the current History of the Land (via Berek's legendary and unprecedented knowledge of Earthpower) and the events unfolding in FR (via Linden's "accidental" learning of the Seven Words) would radically shift.

So, here is one theory tossed out there for us to chew on: who is the Theomach? Is it TC - the TimeWarden - himself? Who is powerful enough to dismay the Elohim so? Who has consistently dismayed the Elohim all along because of his 'reckless' use of power? If it isn't TC, could it be someone else, like Anele? Mahrtiir? Esmer? Why else do we need the convention of the mummy-like wrapping protecting the physical identity of the Theomach, unless that identity would somehow give Linden and Co. forbidden knowledge (i.e., a visgae that someone would recognize) that might change perceptions, actions, and thus the course of history?

Regardless of whether the Theomach is somone we already know or not, I'm interested in hearing other theories on how time is being impacted by the traveling that has occurred so far in the LC.

For example, the other threads that mention CW's actions in scripting Linden's Staff - or the supposition that Linden's staff and Berek's staff are one and the same (i don't believe this to be true, because of the egregious temporal anomaly this represents) - the truth/import of Findail's explanation of the Worm and how/whether this information should be seen in a new light based on Infelice's actions in FR... lots of "time"ly questions... I think it is interesting looking at this new and history-impacting information from both the in-story PoV and the author's perspective - since in my experience, attempting to adopt the latter can help us eliminate theories within the former.

dw

[Post-post addition]
Here is an existing thread that broaches the subject of the Theomach and time travel. Let it be said it was F&F that first posed the theory that someone Linden already knows well (TC? Brinn?) may be the Theomach.

dw

[wayfriend]

It's pretty clear to me from the text that altering something in the past doesn't create alternate timelines, it instead damages the Arch of Time itself. The greater the change, the greater the damage.

In this sense, this is a new way of viewing time paradoxes.

We've yet to see what the effects of a devastating paradox are. There's no way to tell what it looks like.

However, it's clear that very small disturbances heal themselves. This seems to mean that events that don't fit are followed by other events that cancel out or ameliorate or obviate the damaging change. After a certain amount of time passes, the disruption is erased. Those who are downstream in time (that is, futureward) of the disruption don't perceive it. (Were there actually two timelines? Was there only one, and different perceptions of it? I think that this is left unanswered, a ... paradox, if you will.)

We also have very active participants operating to protect time. We have the Elohim, and, among the Insequent, the Theomach and the Mahdoubt. They can travel in time, but they are cautious of creating disruptions. And more importantly, they go out of their way to locate potential problems and divert them so that they don't become disasterous.

The whole thing is incredibly organic. The Arch of Time is like a tree. It can bend. Small cracks can heal over. And its frame is aswarm with small creatures who take care of it, nurture it, and watch out for the fatal lightning stroke.

It seems that perceptions are key. The more a change might be perceived by humans (or sentient beings, rather), the more disasterous it is.

I don't think that this is a quantum-physics type of phenomenon - the observer is part of the process. I think it's more of just a quantitative heuristic - small disruptions tend to go unnoticed, large ones tend to be noticed.

I think, if we ever take this to the next level, we're going to see some activities undertaken by the characters to "heal" disruptions by rushing to the scene and diverting the timeline - changing yet other events so that the cumulative result is pretty close to what really happened. That seems to be the Theomach's strategy when he was in Berek's camp. By "explaining" some things in certain ways, and by asking for vows of silence, damage was mitigated, brought down to a level where it could be tolerated.

[Starkin]

[Ur Dead]

Well to study such in relation to the Chronicles we need to bring to light events that have occurred and see if they are inline with the past chronicles.

One such event is when Linden battled with the Croyel and Roger. It caused the pending earthquake to split Rivenrock and the mountain.
Well our best source for any histories is in TIW.

I have no doubt that the Lord's history of these two events are clouded as the unknown and can be accepted as a part of the Arch's history.

But there is a section when Covenant was in the Mountain he noticed massive pillars reaching upwards before he reached the Earthblood.
Is this what Linden created when she was shoring up the mountain on her persuit of Roger?

I noticed the lake was absent from the pathway also. The one where a voice would cause a boat to glide over it? Was this formed when Linden battled occured? Was it there in Damelon time? And where did that boat come from?!!


This is speculation but I think Linden and TC(but TC is the Timewarden and has the authority to travel the Arch.) are going back to when Damelon is searching for the Earthblood. They are going to be the ones whom show him where it is. At this time Linden may give him her staff (but I also believe that its remote but possible) or they are going to compare the staves and blind them somehow or see if the original one is complete. (with runes carved into it). Linden may suggest that he dip it into the Earthblood to make it more powerful. They also may tell him about the Power of Command and bind him to tell only the most trusted Lords) It would make a good storyline in AATE and follow the Chronicles nicely.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

I see your point that the laws that keep Time as it should be are capable of withstanding stresses like the movements of the Insequent, caesures, etc. But the point I am trying to make is the question of whether the time travel becomes intrinsically necessary to history once it has already occurred - in other words, would Berek have known the Seven words and their import if not for the Theomach? Or are we to assume that prior to Linden's big trip (w/ Roger/TC & JereCro) that the Theomach was planning to approach Berek at some point anyway to give him this knowledge? Or does the Theomach's intervention while Linden is present solely and specifically cause the events that have already been presented to us as the history of the Land? Thinking about the mobius strip, i.e., that Time loops in on itself in such a way that it is impossible to determine where things begin or end in the pattern... does Joan's creation of the caesures through white gold by necessity require the involvement of the Insequent and Linden's time travel as a calming influence to preserve the Arch? In other words, did the first Time anomalies (Joan brand caesures) create the Insequents as Time's (or TC's) way of attempting to heal the breaches caused to it by wild magic? Or have the Insequents always been around, playing idly inside random instants of history, waiting to become useful if and when time started to break? My point is more chicken v. egg than anything else, I think... This line of thinking also raises questions of power magnitude - e.g., because of the Insequent's ability to alter histry, can they be considered more potent that the Elohim? Or are they simply perceived as more poowerful simply because they are more directly meddlesome?

dw

dw

[Seppi2112]

The fact that the Theomach's face is hidden is signicant: I think it means he is either TC or (more likely) Brinn. Why else would SRD hide his face from us?

[sherlock_525]

Wow!!! I don't know who you are DukkhaWaynhim but you got some serious time travel ideas. It is possable that Linden and (fake)TC's trip
did influence the Theomach's plans.(whew, time travel gives me a serious need for lotsof whiskey). And I don't think that the Theomach is Brinn (he thanked Linden for letting him touch the staff, and we know how the Hurachi? View lore)

[dlbpharmd]

The fact that the Theomach's face is hidden is signicant: I think it means he is either TC or (more likely) Brinn. Why else would SRD hide his face from us?

The Theomach kept his face hidden because Linden would've recognized him as Kenaustin Ardenol, and therefore would've been able to command him.

[wayfriend]

DW,

One thing that seems obvious to me is that SRD would not scruple to leave us with paradoxes.

That's significant - most other time travel stories we can use for reference are caught up with making paradoxes impossible. But that's not the case here. And that opens things wide open.

For example: one way to look at the Theomach/Berek issue is that it has always been the case that the Linden met Berek, talked to Berek; that what they did was play out the sequence of events that are already part of history.

But, if there's one thing that would utterly destroy the Chronicles as a story, it would be the denial that the characters have free will, that they can choose. And that kind of 'self-fulfillment' scenario eliminates free will.

So therefore I interpret the Theomach/Berek meeting in another way. I think that the Theomach changed what happened, but he changed it in a way that it dovetailed into what would have happened otherwise. He created a small change, and then mitigated the damage so that it could heal itself. From the futureward point of view, nothing seems to have changed. But something actually did change.

However, I think that the "original" timeline included the Theomach meeting Berek, sharing intel, leading him to the One Tree. That Linden knew his name, Kenaustin Ardenol, proves it. And even the Theomach said that he was going to meet Berek anyway.

But the presence of Linden, Roger, and Jeremiah are the historical change. They were not part of the "original" timeline at all. But the Theomach dovetailed it in. He pulled in the story of the Unfettered, for example. That was something that was going to happen anyway, it's only a small change to introduce it at a slightly different time, in a slightly different way. Far futureward, the change would not be detectable. But, by doing so, he managed to divert Linden's disruptions to the timeline into less harmful paths. Heck, the Theomach even willingly made some changes to take advantage of Linden's presence, make his own task easier.

This may, ultimately, be why he chose the time Linden, Roger, and Jeremiah would appear in. Not just because of the dangers of encountering Damelon. But also because at this time he had an opportunity to both mitigate the damage to the timeline and even use it to his own advantage.

If you look at the fine detail, there is a paradox. There are two different timelines - one where the Theomach joins Berek w/o Linden, and one with Linden. But the paradox was able to be absorbed by the Arch, healed over. The ramifications of the paradox are local, they don't spread. If you pull back, and stand outside the paradox, you don't have to care which really happened, you don't need an answer, it's a Shrodinger's cat.

It's the paradox that cannot be contained in this way that will destroy the Arch.

[wayfriend]

But I see I did not address another part of your post, DW. And I wanted to.

One one level, when the author introduces time travel into a story, well, time gets travelled. It may be that adding the ceasures drove him, from a story mechanic point of view, to introduce other forms of time travel as well. To get done what needed to get done in the story.

At another level, when you enter new territory, you meet the people who live there. When you head out on the highway, you meet people who travel on the highway, people you might not otherwise meet because they were driving right by all this time. When you start travelling through time, you start meeting the other time travellers.

There is some logic to it as well. Other time travellers are attracted to preventing the danger you represent, for one thing - that would be the Theomach. Or they are out to trip you up when you time travel - that would be Esmer. Your time travels might necessitate other time travellers to come out of the woodwork, as it were.

Still, I feel your pain. It doesn't seem to explain everything. There is the sense that the author just starting piling stuff on.

Where were the time travellers that could have warned Covenant not to try and save Marid, eh?

[Stutty]

DW,

So therefore I interpret the Theomach/Berek meeting in another way. I think that the Theomach changed what happened, but he changed it in a way that it dovetailed into what would have happened otherwise. He created a small change, and then mitigated the damage so that it could heal itself. From the futureward point of view, nothing seems to have changed. But something actually did change.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did more than attempt to mitigate damage; he forced the three of them to meet Berek when he altered Roger and Jerry's landing zone. yes?

stutt

[wayfriend]

Well, he didn't force them to meet Berek. But he made it possible.

The text seems to indicate that he is surprised by the idea of going to see Berek, which Linden was the one who proposed it. But he saw opportunity there, and made it work to his advantage.

One could argue that any time, from that time forward, Linden had the opportunity to meet one of the Lords. So it could have happened as easily 500 years later as then.

But by choosing THAT time, Linden meets with Berek at the same time the Theomach does. That helps the Theomach out. And prevents a larger disaster.

If it happened 500 years later, the Theomach would already be at the One Tree (I presume). He would not have been in any position to keep the situation from getting out of hand.

So I guess I have to pull back a bit and say that the Theomach probably never intended Linden meeting Berek when he jumped in and changed Roger's plans. (But then again, if he can see across time...) His interference had a lot more to do with choosing a time where he could oversee what happened, as opposed to having a specific result in mind.

That better?

[Ur Dead]

Interesting Wayfriend.. Maybe the Theomach can see events in the Arch as one reads a book.
He may not need to travel the road of time but he can see what can transpire. So why travel the road to fix a problem when your near immortal and can travel normally to get there.

Also it looks like he has a bit of the Vizards talent or knowledge. He can slow time around him or a dynamic controlled area where he can move at such speeds that he looks like he is behind,in front of and besides himself.
This would allow others to interact with him while in this time spatial area.

This would give him a very potent ability as a warrior on a field of battle.

He also may have an ability to travel distances if needed.
In fact he may have similair knowledge and some abilities of all the Insequents.

[Relayer]

This is speculation but I think Linden and TC(but TC is the Timewarden and has the authority to travel the Arch.) are going back to when Damelon is searching for the Earthblood. They are going to be the ones whom show him where it is.

Isn't everything we're saying speculation?

And, here's some more speculation: Damelon's Door was created by ... Jeremiah. He's the construct guy. Perhaps Damelon will be sworn to secrecy about it, and he can have the glory of the naming rights.

His interference had a lot more to do with choosing a time where he could oversee what happened, as opposed to having a specific result in mind.

Reminds me of another character who likes to do that.

He also may have an ability to travel distances if needed.

He may have taught the Ranyhyn how to do it too...

[Believer]

not sure that fulfilling the loop negates free will.

i think of it like the gargoyles cartoon. if we go back in time, whatever actions we take were already part of the timeline. but we still chose those particular actions.

*shrug*

it makes sense to me, but i can see how some would view it as a contradiction. i don't see it as a necessary contradiction though.

having said that though, the very idea that the arch can be broken or stretched implies to me that this isn't the tack donaldson is taking. rather, it seems that the past is being changed -- but changes that don't affect history very much are ok, like others have said (berek would have remembered the 7 words some other way, or the theomach did it without linden before, etc.)

[Zarathustra]

having said that though, the very idea that the arch can be broken or stretched implies to me that this isn't the tack donaldson is taking. rather, it seems that the past is being changed -- but changes that don't affect history very much are ok, like others have said (berek would have remembered the 7 words some other way, or the theomach did it without linden before, etc.)

Yes, exactly. I think the Theomach would have indeed found another way to do exactly what he did. Linden made it "easier," in his words. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it's plausible. She did win Berek over. However, she also created lots of "ripples" which the Theomach had to manage, so it may have balanced out.

I think the real reason the Theomach interfered was to stop Roger. If he hadn't interfered, Linden wouldn't have had as much time to get suspicious of Roger and Jeremiah. She may have uttered a different Command. By forcing them to take the long way around, he gave her more time for her intuition to kick in. So it wasn't about fulfilling history (that would have worked out on its own anyway), but rather protecting the future. Remember, he couldn't give Linden knowledge which she hadn't earned yet (I still don't really understand this) without threatening the Arch. So he gave her the only thing he could: more time. Oh, and the 7 words, which allowed her to defeat Roger.

[hue of fuzzpaws]

If I may quote from LFB, pg. 274

" For the very Law of Time, the principle of power which made the arch possible, worked to preserve Lord Foul . . .That Law [of Time] requires that no act be undone. Desecration may not be undone - defilement may not be recanted. It may be survived or healed, but not denied."

I read this to mean that once an action has happened, whether in the past by some one from the future or vice versa, that action is then incorporated into the Law of Time, hence, if one tried to stop an act from happening, that is when you will have problems.