The Power of Command

Book 2 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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The Power of Command

Post by Zarathustra »

I decided to continue a conversation in a new thread, because this subject has lots of tangential issues. Feel free to jump in where I leave off, or start with your own PoC issues (different commands Linden could have given, the plausibility of the Elohim's noninterference, whether or not Esmer's advice to drink first was a betrayal, etc.)
earthbrah wrote:Malik23 wrote:
Only one problem with this theory: why didn't the "truth," given to her by the power of command, include this extremely useful information? How could Roger lie to her about his intention to rouse the worm, when she has just given the command to know the truth?
I think it has to do with the nature of the command Linden made. She said, "Show me the truth!" The truth that she commanded was about seeing, not knowing. The descriptions that immediately follow her command deal solely with the appearances of her companions in Melenkurion Skyweir. The rest of what she learned was told to her by Roger, and he certainly could have lied to her.

Even if SRD goofed here, he certainly seems to have plausible denial intact.
Well, it's his book, so he always has plausible denial. He's talented enough to write himself out of any plot hole, I believe. :)

But the interpretation you presented above bugs me worse than the plot hole. The Power of Command would have to be an extremely literal function of Earthpower; the Land would have to work rather mechanically in processing Linden's request. Surely if it can interpret her words at all, it must do so by interpreting her intent behind the words, and not merely their literal meaning. And unless she meant explicitly, "Show me the real appearance behind these illusory facades," I don't see how the Power of Command could apply her words in such a limited fashion, as you're suggesting, without itself being incorrect--and incorrect for a purely mechanical limitation (i.e. processing pure syntactic form, rather than semantic meaning).

Instead of such a specific visual intention, I believe Linden meant something more general with her command, like, "If there is trickery here, let me detect it." She didn't want to be fooled about their intentions, not merely their looks.

Earthpower is organic, and "spiritual," if you want to use that term (though I doubt Donaldson would use it). It relates to the person, not to mechanical, discrete functions. Thus, I believe the Land knew exactly what she meant--beyond the literal translation of her sentence--and I believe Linden meant more than visual appearance. After all, she's a woman who is intimately acquainted with healthsense. For her, seeing the truth would include seeing whether or not a person is lying.

And if we're going to impose a literal interpretation of "truth" anyway, we'd have to insist that appearances aren't true or false. Statements are true or false. "Truth" is a logical qualifier, not an appraisal of visual accuracy. So your interpretation already moves up a step or two beyond the pure logical, syntactic structure of her particular Command sentence, on to a level of figurative interpretation. If we're going to make this move at all, we're in the realm of interpretation: which figurative level we believe was the author's intent.

Going strictly on what we know about the author's intentions, we can look at other crucial examples of where he uses "truth" or "true." When he writes, "be true" in LFB, for instance, he doesn't mean: "Don't wrap yourself in a visual illusion." He means be yourself, be authentic. And I think that's what the Power of Command did in this instance: it forced Roger and the Croyel to reveal themselves, not in how they look, but who they are as people. Yes, this entails seeing their appearance. But appearance was only important as a visual cue to identity. And that's what she was really after.

Besides, there's no reason to assume that Roger was lying about his intention to use the PoC to "become a god." What else could he possibly want that would be more to his advantage?
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Post by wayfriend »

Linden got ripped off, that's for sure. She should have gotten a lot more truth than she ended up getting. It's the Power of Command! She should have "seen" all "truth". Where Roger was. Foul's plans. Delivered in a soothtell-style vision.

It would ruin the plot, for sure. But, still, you are left with the feeling she was ripped off.

But Donaldson described the Power of Command pretty well. We heard it from none other than Amok himself.
In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"But there is another and subtler hazard. Here any soul with the courage to drink may give a Command - but there are few who can foresee the outcome of what they have enacted. When such immeasurable force is unleashed upon the Earth, any accomplishment may recoil upon its accomplisher. If a drinker were to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone, perhaps the Stone's evil would survive uncontained to blight the whole Land. Here the drinker who is not also a prophet risks self-betrayal. Here are possibilities of Desecration which even High Lord Kevin in his despair left slumbering and untouched."
There is no doubt in my mind: the Power of Command does not "interpret the intent behind the words". There are few who can foresee the outcome.

Maybe the Power of Command is not mechanically literal. But there would be no danger of recoiling upon its accomplisher, no self-betrayal, no possibilities of Desecration if the Power of Command interpretted intent. No, those are the hallmarks of a doing what you ask, not what you intend.

In fact, I'm still waiting for "Show me the truth" to come back and bite her on the backside.
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Post by Aleksandr »

Re: She should have "seen" all "truth". Where Roger was. Foul's plans. Delivered in a soothtell-style vision.

Her Command was uttered directly to Roger and Jeremiah. Only they would affected by it. However I can see that it would have neat for Linden to have seen, or Roger be forced to tell, everything that happened to him and Jeremiah since they've been in the Land. I'd like to know who healed Roger of his bullet wounds, why Jeremiah was not healed, and how Jeremiah ended up with the croyel. There should have been a powerful compulsion on Roger to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Of course Linden did say "Show me" not "Tell me" so maybe Roger could still get away with lying when he spoke to her afterward.
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Post by Skurj Scourge »

Will "Show Me The Truth" continue to affect Linden, or was it a one time shot.

And I wonder what the larger implications of drinking Earthblood may be. ELena, the only other who we know of who drank it, dies immediately thereafter, so we can never know what effect it has long term.

Linden seems unaffected by it by the end of FR, other than the transformation she undergoes as a result of what she has experienced. There seem to be no specific physical reprecussions of actually partaking of it.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Wayfriend wrote:
In [u]The Illearth War[/u] was wrote:"But there is another and subtler hazard. Here any soul with the courage to drink may give a Command - but there are few who can foresee the outcome of what they have enacted. When such immeasurable force is unleashed upon the Earth, any accomplishment may recoil upon its accomplisher. If a drinker were to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone, perhaps the Stone's evil would survive uncontained to blight the whole Land. Here the drinker who is not also a prophet risks self-betrayal. Here are possibilities of Desecration which even High Lord Kevin in his despair left slumbering and untouched."
There is no doubt in my mind: the Power of Command does not "interpret the intent behind the words". There are few who can foresee the outcome.
There's a difference between someone not being able to foresee all the consequences of her Command, and limits of the Command function itself. Taking your example, there's no doubt that commanding the destruction of the Illearth Stone would have actually destroyed the Stone. But if one doesn't know that such an action will spread that evil throughout the Land, then it can't possibly be part of one's intentions. Therefore, safeguards against such a possibility can't be included in the command. But that's a limit of one's intentions, not of the Command itself.

If the Command doesn't interpret the intentions of the speaker, then how did the Earthblood know "truth" applied to the visual appearance of Roger and the croyel? That part certainly wasn't included in the literal meaning of her sentence which she uttered. Their appearance wasn't even referenced in her sentence. So some interpretation of intentions is obviously included within this power. Otherwise, her statement is so vague that it's a wonder it worked at all. I mean, it could have just as easily shown her the Truth of Foul's plan, all wrapped up in a little moving picture illusion. The fact that it showed her this particular truth shows that it HAD to have read her intentions. There's no other way around that.
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Post by wayfriend »

Malik23 wrote:Taking your example, there's no doubt that commanding the destruction of the Illearth Stone would have actually destroyed the Stone. But if one doesn't know that such an action will spread that evil throughout the Land, then it can't possibly be part of one's intentions.
And you can imagine the Commander then saying, gee, that wasn't what I intended!

"what you intended" means "and ONLY what you intended", no?
Malik23 wrote:If the Command doesn't interpret the intentions of the speaker, then how did the Earthblood know "truth" applied to the visual appearance of Roger and the croyel?
I agree that the command and the result were disjoint. So I cannot say how this happened.

"Show" means "to cause or permit to be seen", no? So, literally, her command was "Cause/Permit the truth to be seen by me". Works for me. (Except that there is more truth in the world than what was right in front of her.)

... I'm just worried about recoil. Linden can't be the first person to ever dodge that fine print. And if Infelice can lie by telling the truth, what can the Earthblood do?
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Post by earthbrah »

Actually, I was just looking at the juxtaposition of the events immediately following her command, her words. I do think she chose her words unwisely. She didn't get ripped; she ripped herself off by not being more accurate on what she wanted.

And you've forced me to think more deeply on this matter, Malik, namely the manner of Earthblood applying commands given to it. Upon this thought, I have to say that the Earthblood seems to grant commands in a rather mechanical way. SRD may not intend this, I don't know. But the whole thing is rather formulaic to me. The Earthblood is drunk, words are spoken, and they are answered. Of course, the Earth needs some sentience to even be able to answer such words, but...

Maybe intent can be felt by the Earth due to the connection of the commander via the blood's consumption. Here there would be a more sympathetic relationship between commander and command-granter. But if the Earth could interpret the intent of the commander and its command, then words would be superfluous. All the commander would need to do is drink, and then think what he/she wanted. But that's not the mechanism.

Just because the Earth is extantly organic in nature does not mean that aspects of it don't function mechanically. Hell, the brain is constantly compared to a computer, albeit an organic one. There are countless ways that organic nature in our own world functions mechanically; but that doesn't negate its organicness.

Of course, I don't know the intent of SRD on this one. Someone should post a question about it on the GI. Go drink the blood of our earth (for me, beer), and command the creator to answer (that is, ask the guy).
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Post by amanibhavam »

A general observation: these types of granted wishes somehow always seem to be limited in a way in all tales. None of the heroes seem to have their first wish as "Grant me ALL my wishes from this moment on" when they are granted 3 wishes by the goldfish ot the Djinn from the bottle :)

But I agree with the interpretation that the PoC does not command Earthpower itself, it just gives an absolute imperative force to any command uttered in that moment, using the concentrated might of the EP. Linden was in haste and in a frenzy, and put her command in a not very fortunate way. Apparently merely "showing" the truth satisfied the criteria...
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Post by Usivius »

I think you guys are taking it all too literal, like wording a wish properly granted by a tricky djinn.
By drinking, Linden consumed enough raw power to grant herself a wish (per se), and I think the 'wording' of this one is not as important as what SHE wants from it. In her heart/mind Linden wants to know if these two really are TC and her son, likely nothing more. Remember, Linden is quite focused here: she wants to save her son and would love to have TC back. But up till then, the two before her were pale versions and she wanted to know 'the truth'.
It's an internal need that is granted because of the power in her, not an external reaction to her words and vague interpretation of them.

:) :2c:
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Post by Zarathustra »

Usivius wrote:I think you guys are taking it all too literal, like wording a wish properly granted by a tricky djinn.
By drinking, Linden consumed enough raw power to grant herself a wish (per se), and I think the 'wording' of this one is not as important as what SHE wants from it. In her heart/mind Linden wants to know if these two really are TC and her son, likely nothing more. Remember, Linden is quite focused here: she wants to save her son and would love to have TC back. But up till then, the two before her were pale versions and she wanted to know 'the truth'.
It's an internal need that is granted because of the power in her, not an external reaction to her words and vague interpretation of them.

:) :2c:
I agree that the literal wording isn't as important as her intention, what she wants from it. But if she doubts these two enough to waste the PoC on revealing their identity, then she's already pretty sure that they are false. Perhaps there's no problem here with how the PoC worked. But at the very least, she chose her command poorly
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Post by Starkin »

Wow, all of you have raised some interesting points about this... makes me think differently about that scene in some ways....
Usivius wrote:I think you guys are taking it all too literal, like wording a wish properly granted by a tricky djinn.
By drinking, Linden consumed enough raw power to grant herself a wish (per se), and I think the 'wording' of this one is not as important as what SHE wants from it. In her heart/mind Linden wants to know if these two really are TC and her son, likely nothing more. Remember, Linden is quite focused here: she wants to save her son and would love to have TC back. But up till then, the two before her were pale versions and she wanted to know 'the truth'.
It's an internal need that is granted because of the power in her, not an external reaction to her words and vague interpretation of them.

:) :2c:
...but I'm with Usivius in this. She wanted the truth right in front of her concerning her son and Roger and that's what she got: the truth of the deception, nothing more.
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Post by earthbrah »

Supposedly, drinking once from the EB is all that can be handled by any one person. The comments are making me think that the intent of the person uttering the command is the only intent that matters. What I mean is that, it doesn't seem that the EB itself can read the person's intent, but rather that intent uttered in words causes a manifest reality of the inner thought that is clothed in words in that moment.

It's almost like there's a certain quantity of power in each mL of EB, and it can come out when mingled with a person's consciousness, and then uttered aloud. I wonder how different a command would be if made from a very clear and unrushed mind. I wonder how much more potent a command might be if more EB is consumed at one time. Can too much consumption kill the consumer? I think we were led to believe that it could.

But I agree with the posts following my last one. The command met exactly what Linden seemed to have wanted from it. She wanted to know or see the truth of her two companions; that was it. And she got it. And I think the backlash has already happened, i.e. the blackening of the Staff, the hardening of her heart.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Honestly, I think there was no other command she could have made. If she asked for anything else, without knowing the truth about those two, she risked all kinds of things going wrong. Even if she had known who they were beforehand, asking for anything else without full knowledge of the implications would be risky.

And I agree that the Earthblood's effect is to give so much concentrated power to the drinker that they can, for a very limited time, cause whatever they wish to come to pass.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Murrin et al, good points.

The reason I started this thread, the reason I started thinking about this at all, was because Romeo suggested that Esmer's advice to drink the EB was itself a betrayal, and that Roger didn't really want to end the earth and become a god. I resisted that because I didn't think it was possible for Roger to lie after a Command of truth had just been given.

Thus, we were led into an analysis of how literal the PoC is in how it interprets one's intentions. Because Linden didn't say, "Show me the visual truth of these two figures standing before me," the EB had to interpret her request in those terms. So we've agreed that some interpretation of intent is done. I'm not sure how plausible it is that her intentions were so limited, but I have no textual evidence to back that up.

So, does this leave open the possibility that Roger could have been lying about his intentions after this Command, or not?

Murrin, while her command may have been chosen wisely in terms of picking one that would have as little backlash as possible, she could have commanded any number of things. She could have said: "Take me to the real Jeremiah." This would have invoked the help of the Elohim to stop Roger, because her absence from MS would have necessitated their intervention (as everyone kept telling her). And it would have shown her the truth by default, because she'd then be with the real Jeremiah. And she'd have achieved her most fundamental goal (finding J.).

But in the end, all she had to do was touch them. If she doubted them this much, why not just touch them and learn the truth? She could have touched them both while they tried to get into the wooden cage. That way, the risk to the earth would have been avoided because then they wouldn't have had to go to the EB.
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Post by amanibhavam »

So you assume then that the boy straddled by the croyel was not the real Jeremiah? I have always thought that IS Jeremiah, leased by LF to the croyel so that it can play his little games with him...
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Post by I'm Murrin »

"Take me to the real Jeremiah" wouldn't have done much: That was the real Jeremiah, just under the control of the croyel.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

But in the end, all she had to do was touch them. If she doubted them this much, why not just touch them and learn the truth? She could have touched them both while they tried to get into the wooden cage. That way, the risk to the earth would have been avoided because then they wouldn't have had to go to the EB.
She didn't know that her touch would reveal the truth, and also she was afraid that Jeremiah would disappear (he told her as much in Chapter 1.)
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Post by Zarathustra »

Murrin wrote:"Take me to the real Jeremiah" wouldn't have done much: That was the real Jeremiah, just under the control of the croyel.
While that may have been J's real appearance, he was still "separated" from his real body. He was physically in another time and place, which is why she still has to find him.
dlbpharmd wrote:
She didn't know that her touch would reveal the truth, and also she was afraid that Jeremiah would disappear (he told her as much in Chapter 1.)
But she already had proof that Roger was lying about this "disappearing when you touch us" via the Berek encounter. Putting 2 and 2 together, she could have deduced that the reason he was lying about this was that it would reveal his identity. Given the fact that she already doubts who his is at this point, such logic should have been unavoidable.
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Post by I'm Murrin »

What makes you think Jeremiah wasn't physically there? Roger certainly was, and the "don't touch us" was just to stop her feeling what they really were. I don't see any reason why we should think they weren't both there in person--being in two places at once would violate Time (and they could no longer claim the excuse of it being done by the Timewarden himself...).
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Post by Zarathustra »

Murrin wrote:What makes you think Jeremiah wasn't physically there? Roger certainly was, and the "don't touch us" was just to stop her feeling what they really were. I don't see any reason why we should think they weren't both there in person--being in two places at once would violate Time (and they could no longer claim the excuse of it being done by the Timewarden himself...).
Well, I was just going by the explanation they gave earlier in the book. But I suppose that's not necessary anymore, with the croyel controlling J, he'd no longer have to be Foul's prisoner in literal terms.
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