Question about Andelain...

[Rigel]

It's stated in the text that there are other powers (note the plural) in Andelain, and that one of them has commanded the Dead not to council Linden until after she has made her choice.

My question is... WHY?!?!?

What kind of villain won't let TC say "Hey babe, you know how you're planning to bring me back to life? Bad idea!"

She could have so easily chosen a different route, if she'd been given answers. But everyone insisted on keeping her in the dark, and leaving her only two options: give up, or bust!

Well, she wasn't going to give up, so what did they expect her to do?

[I'm Murrin]

She couldn't be given outsider knowledge--what the dead knew--if it would influence her actions, in particular when the action was such a massively significant one. The more important the things she does, the more important it is that she does them of her own free choice.

[amanibhavam]

Well, that is one of the central issues in the Final Chronicles: everybody who is willing to support Linden all along is pretty much in the dark the same way she is and everybody who is in the know seems to have some sort of personal agenda to follow which precludes informing Linden about the big picture. And since the POV of the first two books is that of Linden, we as readers are as much in the dark as she is - a technique well known to the reader from The Gap.

[wayfriend]

Why does everyone assume that the Dead in Andelain would have counciled her NOT to resurrect TC?

It seems more than plausible that the opposite is true. That all those powers who have an agenda that dictate keeping Linden ignorant also would be opposed to Linden getting any solace from anyone who would confirm that she is doing the right thing.

[I'm Murrin]

That assumption is supported in part by the fact that the dead Sunder and Hollian seemed to say she was making a mistake through Anele in Salva Gildenbourne. (Covenant, on the other hand, I think would have left it up to her and made no judgement, recognising the necessity of freedom.) Either way, whoever silenced them apparently believed that any advice on the subject would lessen the freedom of choice in her actions.

[wayfriend]

That assumption is supported in part by the fact that the dead Sunder and Hollian seemed to say she was making a mistake through Anele in Salva Gildenbourne.

Not all the Dead interpret things the same way. For example, Kevin vs the other Dead in WGW.

So you could also construe the point you mention to meaning that only the Dead who would discourage Linden are allowed to get through to her.

On the other hand, what was said was: "You should not have come. The hazard is too great. Darkness consumes you. The Despiser has planned long and cunningly for your presence, and his snares are many." This doesn't exactly state Linden is taking the wrong path --- only that she is doing what Foul knew she would do. It's telling that the word snare is used. For, as Mhoram said, It boots nothing to avoid his snares.

[FAP]

Wayfriend TC himself didn't seem exactly thrilled with being resurrected. There is no evidence that any of the Dead supported or would have advised Linden's actions.

Linden right now is greatly flawed. Notice how Stave keeps saying Linden does not forgive. Go back and reread the bit in Ill Earth Ward where Bannor and Covenant are speaking of Kevin, Bannor is bringing TC to the Close. Bannor also says the Blood Guard do not forgive.

Both the Bloodguard and Linden were/are limited by their inability to move forward and let go of past events. Until Linden can forgive she'll stumble from one mistake to the next.

[wayfriend]

Wayfriend TC himself didn't seem exactly thrilled with being resurrected.

Which means, precisely, what? Do you know what thing Covenant refers to when he says, what have you done?

Until Linden can forgive she'll stumble from one mistake to the next.

A typical anti-Linden sentiment, in that it is a sweeping generalization without any facts to back it up.

Who does Linden need to forgive, that she hasn't forgiven, and that she should forgive? Lord Foul?

And what mistakes has that lead to?

[Ur Dead]

A typical anti-Linden sentiment, in that it is a sweeping generalization without any facts to back it up.

Wayfriend that is EXACTLY what I have been refering to. What has Linden done to warrant such treatment. I am in agreement with you.

What are the sins and why? I bet there's a pro and con for her actions.
Her time travels hasn't destroyed the arch. It would have been destroyed when she returned from her trips.

I am more inclined to blame the Harachuai for the Lands ills because they have the knowledge, they refuse to share their experience and are acting like self delusional twats! Aside from Stave, Cail, Brinn and maybe Bannor, none of that race really helped the people of the Land. They used their "memories" to their own self serving advantage.

( hoo boey!! am I gonna catch hell now )

[FAP]

[

Who does Linden need to forgive, that she hasn't forgiven, and that she should forgive? Lord Foul?

Ask Stave. He says it often enough that it's not just an offhand comment. My guess is that she has to forgive herself for not being able to protect and save her boy. Until then she'll continue to be the same self absorbed brittle woman we see in the most current book.

BTW now that Covenant is not part of the Arch anymore, and not time warden, who is protecting the arch from TC's possessed ex-wife?

[wayfriend]

There is only one place where Linden states aloud that she will not forgive something.

"But Lord Foul took my son and gave him to the croyel. That I do not forgive. I do not forgive."

Stave, being sort of a jerk, reminds her of this three or four times.

Linden: Oh, look, it's a beautiful forest.
Stave: And you do not forgive.

So, Stave is harping on it. But, really, do we expect Linden to forgive Lord Foul? No. Does it indicate that Stave, being a rather contemplative Haruchai, is thinking about the wisdom of thinking in absolutes? Of course.

This has nothing to do with self-forgiveness, either.

In fact, Linden's thoughts on the matter were: While she lived, she would both accuse and forgive herself.

That seems to strike the right tone. So I don't see any forgiveness issues here.

[The Humbled]

BTW now that Covenant is not part of the Arch anymore, and not time warden, who is protecting the arch from TC's possessed ex-wife?

...or from Roger and the croyel and Linden's own actions previously.

But I am not in judgement of LA, for good or bad. I believe she has acted more or less exactly as she should have- while possibly her intention/deeper motivations have been altered. As I said in another thread her character arc may be moving from redeemer to desecrater in the tradition of flawed heroes in the Land. Given (we assume) TC's own instructions:

You need the staff of law
Find me
Remember that I'm dead
Do something that they don't expect

Well, check check and double check.

I'm interested in the original question, what "power(s)" in Andelain has yet to be named? The Theomach says several times in the time of Kevin that "in this time, the chosen is not different than the arch of time" which leads me to belive that every action is pivotal. I get the same impression as the book ends in Andelain, every action is pivotal and needs to have the power of choice. From the different facial reactions of the dead, they seem not altogether unpleased- but we don't get too much information after the deed is done.

Is Infelice correct about TWOTWE? Ah cliffhangers from the man who gave us Landsdrop, hahaha!

[FAP]

I don't think it's Foul that Linden needs to forgive.

Also I doubt it's the author writing Stave to be a jerk. In the most recent book Stave isn't shown as a jerk so I don't know why you'd think the author would make Stave one in this very specific narrow instance.

Plus, to me, it too deeply mirrors the Bloodguard not forgiving themselves for letting Kevin send them to safety while Kev nuked the land and the trouble that lack of forgiveness brought them. It wasn't their fault, they are not equal to every task, nor responsible for everything.

It took the possession of three Bloodguard to teach them that. A lesson so hard for them it broke their vow. How will Linden learn and at what cost.

Wayfriend if you had to name Linden's top three faults what would they be?

[Relayer]

Stave, being sort of a jerk, reminds her of this three or four times.

Linden: Oh, look, it's a beautiful forest.
Stave: And you do not forgive.

LOL. I noticed a couple of times like this where it seems like a total non-sequitur, like SRD really wants to make sure we get it.

And at least one of these times Stave also says "the Haruchai also do not forgive"

[Seppi2112]

Something I just realized... SRD mentioned in the GI recently that the Theomach returned to the ranks of the dead when Brinn defeated him. Silencing the dead to keep them from influencing Linden seems like something he would do.

Just a thought.

[The Humbled]

EXCELLENT point Seppi2112!
And that raises the question of how much power the dead Insequent retain.
The Mahdoubt included.

[Ur Dead]

Wayfriend if you had to name Linden's top three faults what would they be?

FAP I will try to give my idea of her faults.

She is insecure when it come to dealing with the new threats.
Her first translation to the Land was when the Land was under severe stress. An outright attack on the health and physical well being of the world. She wasn't with TC when his first visits started. TC saw the Land as close to it was as it's now. The Lands ability to create friends thru Earthpower. But now hindered with Kevin's Dirt and the Masters repressions. Linden understood the diseased Land and healed it as her training permitted her. This new threat is much more subtle and it doesn't constantly attack her. It's an attack against time itself.

She doubts herself.
Her experiences with her parents laid a foundation that if she reversed her actions she would have prevented her fathers death and from her killing her mother. Her actions has seeded doubt on a correct course of actions. But Foul doesn't make it any easier.

These two are probably the main reasons she resurrected Thomas. She wants to pass off the responsibility back to Covenant. She want to prevent the destruction and doesn't want to kill the Land.


Her dedication to her son is a fault.
For ten years she cared for a child totally disabled by the events of the previous 10 years. Jerry was 5 years old. That can impact a child for life.
It was her way to fill in the lost of TC when she returned. Her life has revolved around her son. (Adopted but nevertheless her son ) to a point that it could crack her sanity of she lost him. So she is willing to sacifice everything to rescue her son.

She wants her son back. But she would hate to destroy a place she healed. She doesn't have the fully knowledge she needs to make a sound decision. She is not sure of herself, but she tries. I didn't expect her to raise Covenant so she did something nobody expected.

Most people expect her to destroy the Arch of Time. Because of the description of the Time constraint, people see it ridged like a Stone bridge. But to me the Arch of Time is like fluid or a multicable cable.
A part can snap but the structure holds. It would have to be unbound along many lines before it gives way. That is why the time travel and the ceasures can't full undo it. Linden would have to release much more enegy than she is capable of right now to unbind the Arch.

But SRD never go into the specfics of how the Arch was made.

[The Humbled]

Ur Dead, I find your description of LA's doubt and insecurity very reminiscent of TC in the beginning of the First Chronicles. Thomas Covenant entered the land against his will, refused to believe in it, and did everything in his power to place the responsibility and decision in crisis on the land's inhabitants. I was as frustrated by TC's reluctance at first reading LFB as I think I have been with any "hero" in any story. However, it was real to me, and he came through at the end. I actually see LA taking the lead in decision making much more, and she does not doubt that the crisis is real. I keep thinking that she is on a sort of opposite arc as TC was in the first books.

But I'm neutral in the LA love/hate debate. What I love is SRD's refusal to create two dimensional puppets who are beyond reproach, behave predictably, and who are therefore less than human. He writes about corruption as it is in the real world, a slippery slope.

I agree with you that her son is her Achilles heel, and that poor Jeremiah may have been a tool of LF ever since the fateful night he was made to put his hand in the fire.

SRD's quote from the GI keeps echoing with me:
"Linden's role as a POV character is, has been, and will continue to be essential. If that doesn't work for you, you probably wish I were writing a different story."
I can dislike a character's choices, but I love the story and where it's taking me! If only a little more quickly now!

[SleeplessOne]

in reply to the op, I assumed the Dead etc were adhering to the whole 'neccesity of freedom' policy that the folk of the Land are so fond of promoting ..

[Borillar]

Something I just realized... SRD mentioned in the GI recently that the Theomach returned to the ranks of the dead when Brinn defeated him. Silencing the dead to keep them from influencing Linden seems like something he would do.

Doesn't the GI also say that the Theomach also "passes out of the story" at that point too? SRD seemed to suggest that the Theomach's role was confined to the past.