Question Regarding the Death of Ceer

[Brinn]

I'm reading the Chronicles again for about the 5th or 6th time although it's been about 3 years since I read it last. I'm currently almost through TOT and have a question that I can't seem to answer. During the fight on the Sandwall Ceer takes a spear that was intended for Linden in the stomach. As he bleeds to death on her legs, she tries to kill him with a broken spear but Brinn stops her. Brinn and Cail seek punishment for her act but Covenant wins their forbearance and questions Linden. She explains her reasons for attempting to kill him. She relates the tale of her father's suicide and how she killed her cancer-ridden mother and how she experienced these emotions while in the grip of the Elohim wrought trance. I've reread this passage several times and still do not have a firm grasp of her reasons for attempting to kill Ceer. Her explanation is very ambiguous and vague. What was your interpretation of her motivation?

[Tohrm]

I think that it had something to do with the way she was before she finally gained her balance at the end of WGW. Before she achieved her balance in the land, she was full of death psychologically. She felt that death was the answer to Sunders' predicament with his mother if you remember. She felt that the power to kill someone was power, and at that point in the land she was craving power in any form that she could get. She was possessing TC at every chance that she could get to get the power of the white gold. Up until she achieved her balance, she was as much a raver in some regards as the three!

[danlo]

I don't believe that there is a better answer 2 Brinn's question than the 1 u just gave Tohrm!!! Oh, and by the way! Welcome 2 KW most noble Haruchai! Be welcome, welcome and true, Brinn!

[Brinn]

Much Obliged Tohrm! That makes some sense.

[JD]

Another way to look at this is, Linden was horrified by suicide, her father's suicide about drove her insane. When Convenant offered himself at the Banefire in replacement of Joan, she also saw that as giving up (suicide). When Ceer took that spear meant for her, and Ceer's body pretty much gave up trying to live, she also saw that as suicide, and it caused her to go mad temporarily.

[Dromond]

Hello,Everone. Please read my apology in the Welcome visitors topic if you haven't yet. I went and reread Lindens' attempt to kill Ceer and yes, her explanation is vague at best. But Linden suffered from "black moods" most of her life. Black moods may mean different things to different people,but she must have suffered from the mother of them all because of the extremity of her parents' death. One quote I found enlightening-"All my life I've had the darkness under control. One way or another. But I had to give that up, so I could get far enough inside you. I didn't have any left for Ceer." She had no control over her personal sunbane. Perhaps her black moods was why she was chosen. And why she could see.

[Skyweir]

intriguing analyses for LA's response to Ceer's fatal injury .. I too found her personal explanation for how she acted to be vague and unsatisfying ..

I agree her psyche was dominated by her personal demons .. and I can appreciate to some degree why this was so .. her response to Ceer howver, always bothered me .. and I was never entirely satisfied with the explanation she proffered to justify her actions re: Ceer ..

[Prince of Amber]

Its funny how we read things differently - I was absolutely convinced by the whole Ceer / Linden situation, I found the reactions of all the parties involved believable and true to character (particularly the Haruchai)
Perhaps this has to do with our personal opinions of Linden - I know the Watch seems to be split between lovers and haters ( I have always loved the character - in fact I sometimes wish I could spend a few days and nights alone with her in Andelain - particularly the nights )

[Skyweir]

fair criticism .. maybe it is bias that colours my pov .. I never totally hated LA .. I most often felt great pity for her .. and only partially disliked her .. and not all the time even .. but the Ceer thing did annoy me ..

Ceer already injured .. from the sandgorgan battle .. stepped infront of a spear intended for Linden ..

Which at the time .. she seemed to welcome .. the woman who loathed suicidal surrender .. craved that surrender for herself .. as much as she craved her own redemptive act of atonement for her crime ..

A definite conflict in her there .. and understandable too when you consider her past .. loathing suicidal desires of others .. but welcoming death for herself (at that moment)

.. Ceer thrusts himself between her and the intended spear .. and takes it in the stomach .. and falls on her - pinning her to the ground with the weight of the Haruchai binding her underneath him ..

He beseeches her ..

Help me rise. I must fight

.

and this plea of Ceer becomes in her mind ..

help me die .. I must die.

.. clearly she was not in her right mind .. and we cant hate her for that .. I guess.

Gripping the wood like a spike, she copied the decision which had shaped her life. Ceer lifted the fist from his belly too slowly to stop her. She raised both arms and tried to drive the spear point down his throat.

Cail kicked out at her. His foot caught the upper part of her right arm, where the bruises were deepest, made her miss her thrust and flop backward ..

not in her right mind .. yep .. and that is always a defense .. had she not been averted .. she would have driven the spear right down Ceer's throat and killed him herself.

I feel for her story .. of woe .. but somethings I find even more disturbing ..

... without sound, [she] had not dared to let one sob through her teeth to be heard by the nurses, betray her. She had harldy seen what she was doing as she unhooked the tubes of oxygen from her mother's nostrils. The darkness in her had begun to giber. It laughed like lust at the prospect of nourishment. Death was power. Power. The strength to stuff accusations back down the throats of those who accused her. Are you not evil?

Shedding the tears which had dogged her all her life and would never stop, never be forgiven she began thrusting tissues one by one into her mother's mouth. 'At least that made her look at me' ... 'She tried to stop me. But she didnt have the strength. She couldnt lift her own weight enough to stop me. 'Then it was over'. I didnt have to breath that stench any more. She was no longer trembling. Something inside her had parted. When I was sure, I went on as if I'd already planned exactly what I was going to do. I took the tissues out of her mouth - flushed then down the toilet. I put the oxygen tubes back in her nose. Then I went ahead and told the nurses I thought my mother had stopped breathing.'

she goes on to say ..

'I gave her what she wanted.'

.. but LA's mother never asked LA to kill her .. she plead with God to let her die .. It was LA that took it upon herself to interpret and answered her plea .. and she said ..

'God Himself couldn't do anything except let her suffer. but I gave her what she wanted. It was evil.'

It was always about power to LA .. power and pay-back. With a statement like that .. she would be standing in front of a court of law answering to solid charge of homicide .. and imo .. rightly so!

.. and if we believe to die at her daughters hand was what her mother would have wanted .. then this comment would challenge that view point also ..

Because of me, the last thing she felt in her life was terror'.

All this is truly horrible .. and sure LA was not in her right mind after pulling TC out of the elohim trance .. I was all the same not really satisfied with this dark (power) hungry desire to extinguish life as being a justifiable excuse to her attempt on Ceer's life.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yes the "LA Law" (haha) was not to posses anyone and that evil wasnt real (at the beginning) but she violated her Laws. I hate her for her weird doctrine and for her desire for the ring.

[Skyweir]

yes there seemed to be a lot of conflicting desires occupying LA's mind .. the double standard re:suicide .. the fact that she extinguished her mother's life .. and in some ways it was all just about getting even .. and getting free of her sad past with her parents.

but why Ceer?? .. what had he done to LA? Her attempt on his life .. though maybe not attempted while in her right mind .. was against his dipassion .. his Haruchia-ness .. which she didnt really seem to understand.

But why wouldnt she understand such a concept as dispassion? She criticised the Haruchai for leaving Heregrom's lifeless body in the sand .. following the battle with the Sandgorgan .. she raised her fist to strike Brinn for his detached assessment of his companions fate.

He failed

.

She was a doctor .. part of her training would have involved her own relative detachment from those who present as patients. Was her own detached killing of her mother something she also loathed? I am sure it was .. she really was quite a conflicted soul .. in dire need of her own personal redemption ..

[Lord Mhoram]

To tell you the truth, Im not sure in the first two books of the Second Chronicles that LA was entirely sane. I mean, who tries to kill a Haruchai lol. But, seriously she, like Covenant, was overwhelmed by the Land. But in a different way. Covenants newfound senses were overwhelmed by health, LAs by evil and distortion. So LAs attempted murder of Ceer was the equivalent of Covenants rape of Lena. Thats my theory.

[Skyweir]

true .. her sanity or lack of it is a defence to her crimes of murder and attempted murder .. no doubt .. but I personally cannot go for the; 'the same as TC's rape of Lena theory'.

TC had never raped anyone before .. that we are aware of .. and not in the 'real world' .. just in what he temporarily thought as a dream .. to him it was him fantasising .. like his internal dialogue attested to in LFB .. when he saw the school girls in short skirts flirting with whomever ..

It has not been porported that LA fantasised about extinguishing peoples lives in the real world prior to her coming to the Land .. no not fantasising .. rather she was haunted by actual memories of her involvement with her mothers death .. of the shocking experience of watching her father's impending death as his blood slowly drain from his sizeable form ..

Truly horrible life experiences .. destined to leave their mark .. And they had left their mark in her .. Maybe the only reason she did what she did to her mother was because of this lack of sanity .. the horror of her life ..

I shudder to imagine what the cumulative experience of her family life and those 2 defining horrific events in her life will do to a person ..

She wasn't evil .. though clearly what she had done was wrong .. she knew it .. even as she did it .. she even cleaned away the evidence of having done what she did .. but she still wasnt evil ..

It would seem she is beyond labels to categorise her .. She struggled it would seem to overcome her past .. by saving life as a doctor whenever she could .. She seems to have been a good doctor ..

On the face of it .. it may be easy to draw a parrallel between TC and LA ... but their crimes were vastly different. LA didnt attempt Ceer's life because she struggled with the reality of the Land .. she did it because her past actions provided/suggested this course/pattern of action ..

Her failing is believing she has the right to interpret the will of others .. and take life from individuals that might not want her to take it from them ..

and anyway that is also an excuse .. because she knew her mother didnt want her to take away her life .. but she did it anyway ..

and it was a vengence taking re: her mum .. and I wonder if it wasnt also the same with Ceer .. she never really understood the Haruchai .. and I think they had a right to demand she answer for what she attempted on Ceer. She also had a right to defend herself ..

The same can be said of her mothers death .. imo ..

[Dromond]

As Prince of Amber says, LA seems to be a LOVE/HATE character. I love her. Her strength becomes undeniable only at the end. I think she is more complex than TC. High Lord Mhoram questions her sanity-I say there is no question! She was insane! Her Father spilled his blood in front of her and said "you never loved me any way" Ouch!! What was she, 8 or 9? Her Mother blamed her for his death! Then in her early teens she killed her Mother. If I were reading such a background about another character by another author, I would expect to be reading about a serial killer or some such evil. But what did LA do? Put herself through Med School,to become a Doctor in a small town,so that people like her parents would be diagnosed in time.(Depression and cancer) Guilt may have been the overriding motivator,but she did try to take the high road throughout her adult life.

[Lord Mhoram]

Drommond, I didnt say she was totally insane. I said she was insane in the first two books. In WGW she comes through. But that doesnt make me like her more. So basically what Im trying to say is, that LA had some....."problems" at the beginning of the Second Chronicles.

Drommond also said that LA was more complex then Covenant. I disagree. Covenant is the most fascinating character Ive ever read about. His own problems here and in the Land made his a deep character. In the Land, his problems were his insecurity about violence, his guilt for Lena, his apparent inability to meet the expectations of the people of the Land, his conflict with LF resulting in LF manipulating Covenants journies through the Land. Also his guilt for the deaths and wars his presence caused in the Land. For all these reasons and more, I think TCTC was not your average "Quest for the Sword" type fantasy, but a more complex, and deep novel.

[caamora]

Ok guys. I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this and I'm sure MANY of you will disagree with me but, here it goes! I'm going to play the sex card!
I occurs to me that many of you dislike LA simply because she is a woman that you don't understand. I, myself, simpathize with her. Every woman worries about everything and feels guilty about everything! Every woman - at least once a month - is insane! Now, I know that you men out there will not gainsay that!
I just hate to read such viciousness written about a wonderfully complex character. SRD is truly brilliant! I think that he is the one male author who was able to create a convincing female character!

[Lord Mhoram]

Wow, Caamora, youre really putting me on the defensive here. My comments on your thoughts are in "Lack of a Hero?".

[caamora]

My reply is on "Lack of a Hero". And please don't feel defensive. You know, I love you all!

[Skyweir]

I think you may mis-comprehend the points posted about LA .. there is no vicousness in an objective process of quoting her own dialogue (internal and external) from the books. Vicousness implies a subjective activity to the tune of a hate-fest .. I stated that I didnt hate LA .. and only partially disliked her .. I felt sorry for what she endured .. and such experiences as she endured are likely to create a conflicted mind such as LA endured.

I also said she wasnt evil even though her role in her mothers death .. was an active wrong .. and she acknowledges that herself in her own dialogue ..

SRD doesnt label characters black and white and thats one of the most intriguing aspects of his work imo .. in that most of his characters are credible and 'real' .. All struggling with some personal battle over themselves as most in real life do .. I respect and admire this very aspect of his authorship and creative process ..

Viscious comments??? .. No m'lady Caamora .. that is not a fair or just appraisal of the analysis undertaken here ..

Are you implying that our assessment of LA's behaviour has been sexist ?? .. how exactly are you intending to play the 'sex card' in order to forward an arguement that explains LA's attitude to Ceer and the action she took to attempt his demise?

We have agreed that she was 'not in her right mind' .. we have explored the reasons this may have been so .. (her recent experience with saving TC from the elohim imposed trance) (her unquestionably tragic past) (etc) ..

I really feel for LA .. watching her father die infront of her slowly .. accusing her of lacking love for him .. and carrying the burden of guilt for her dad's death ..

all provide the extenuating circumstances in LA's defence to the murder of her mother and the attempted murder of Ceer.

maybe she had a complete defence by reason of insanity?? maybe .. I dont know .. was she really 'insane'? Its hard to imagine her action and involvement in her mothers death to be anything else .. isnt it?