Let's talk crossovers

[Lord Mhoram]

Sorry if this is done before, but let's devise crossovers. One of my favorite ones that I've thought about is Batman versus Spiderman.

I'd say first time they fight, it comes to a draw. Next time they meet, Batman has devised a way to beat the pulp out of Spidey. Batman is tougher psychologically and is just more willing to do whatever it takes to win, and his tools and gadgets are a major plus (effectively rendering Spiderman's webs impotent, for example). Spiderman is physically stronger and has a host of powers, but weaker-willed. Batman's villains are much tougher too, I'd wager.

I still think it's up for debate though.

[sgt.null]

Spiderman is superstrong, superfast, heals quicker, has spidersense. and has webbing. he can climb walls.

Batman dresses in leather and beats people up.

Spiderman takes Batman out in seconds. first time, next time, last time.

[dlbpharmd]

My understanding of Spiderman is that pound for pound he's the strongest character in the Marvel Universe. I think Batman would be pounded, kind of like when he fought Bane the first time.

[wayfriend]

Three words.

Spoiler

Bats. Eat. Bugs.

[dlbpharmd]

OTOH, Batman and Daredevil would be a helluva fight. I vaguely remember a crossever between those too though.

[Lord Mhoram]

sarge and dlb,

You are right in that Spidey is incredibly strong. But Batman has beaten Superman repeatedly; once when Batman was in his 50s, too (The Dark Knight Returns). I think Spiderman would be a challenge, but would ultimately lose.

[Fist and Faith]

Batman has never actually beaten Superman. He's pounded him around a bit, and caused him pain, but Supes is always thinking, "Come on, Bruce! You know you can't beat me. Stop all this before I hurt you." And Batman is almost always thinking, "I have to get the hell out of here before he kills me!!!"

It could go different against Spiderman. Spiderman is not nearly as invulnerable as Superman. If Batman knew they were going to fight, he could probably have things prepared, like he does whenever he fights Superman. And they'd be more likely to win against Spiderman. But if he didn't know a fight was coming, and hadn't done prep work, even if he knew who Spiderman was, he'd get pounded. The Cat is among the top several martial artists in Marvel (Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Ben Turner, Elektra...), and he didn't come close to Spiderman when they fought.


As far as crossovers go, the X-Man/Teen Titans is the best!!! Dark Phoenix, Darkseid, and Deathstroke. Just damned awesome comic!!

[sgt.null]

sarge and dlb,

You are right in that Spidey is incredibly strong. But Batman has beaten Superman repeatedly; once when Batman was in his 50s, too (The Dark Knight Returns). I think Spiderman would be a challenge, but would ultimately lose.

Superman has kryptonite. Spiderman would squash Bats befor ehe ever got a shot in.

and Daredevil would also kick Bat's ass. the man has radar sense. and some sort of kung fu. he would kick Bat's ass and head back to hell's kitchen.

Iron Fist would beat Iron Man. as would Hawkman. pretty much any good fighter with some sort of super power.

[dANdeLION]

Spiderman is physically stronger and has a host of powers, but weaker-willed. Batman's villains are much tougher too, I'd wager.

I still think it's up for debate though.

There's no debate; Spiderman willpower is second to none. He has the proportionate strenght of a spider, which means he can lift 50 times his own weight, which means he's able to bench press about 5 tons. The main edge Batman has is his insanity, though I'm sure you'd call it something else. But, lets face it, the man's whacked out. Spiderman, being a nice guy, would not try to injure or kill Batman, and yes, Batman would slink back to his cave and use his ridiculous OCD to figure out a way to neutralize Spiderman, even though Spidey's always been a major force for good, almost as selfless as Superman, which the idiot Batman has tried to disable several times. Still, Spidey would find a way to win, as he has major experience taking on whack jobs like the Goblin, be he of the Green or Hob variety. He's also beaten real vampires, so a nut in a bad suit would prove no problem for him. Oh, and I read the Dark Knight; Batman threw everything at Supes, knowing he couldn't win, and then faked a heart attack and subsequent death do he could continue his work underground, which was his real objective, because he know he had no chance in hell of beating Supes. Personally, I'd like to see Bats take on Wolverine, who'd turn him into a bloody stump, or a tactical equivalent, like say Iron Man or Mr. Fantastic, who'd leave his crazy ass floating in the Negative Zone until he chilled the Freak out.

[sgt.null]

good points dAN.

what about Bats versus a fully-insane Moonknight? the Punisher? Black Widow?

[dlbpharmd]

Batman kicks Punisher's ass. I don't know anything about the other characters.

Batman/Daredeviil would not be so lopsided, Sarge.

[Lord Mhoram]

dAN,

I personally don't see how you can say that Spidey's "willpower is second to none" and then recount Batman's fight against Superman in The Dark Knight Returns. I brought that up for two reasons: (1) it proves that Batman can take on the big guns; and (2) it demonstrates his tactics in a nutshell. Batman built a specialized suit just to take Supes on; he used Kryptonite to neutralize him; he used his surroundings to his advantage (Crime Alley); and he fought like the complete badass that he is. You can call it insanity or OCD if you'd like (though I believe at least one of these is required to don a costume and a sanctimonious title and fight crime, but hey ), but he has it in spades and he uses it to his advantage.

You are probably right that Batman would get his ass handed to him in an initial meeting and would escape with his life - whether due to Spiderman's altruism or not is irrelevant; if Spidey does that, that's his problem, not a deficiency of Batman's. And you're right, he'd come out of the Batcave prepared next time with a way to win - with advanced technology, knowledge of his enemy's weaknesses which he will ruthlessly exploit, use of his surroundings, and general perseverance and fighting skills - like he's done against Superman and any number of other psychos that he's fought against (way more psychotic and many more tougher than Spiderman's villains, btw). I just think that when he is ready the second or third time, he would win; you do not think so.

even though Spidey's always been a major force for good, almost as selfless as Superman, which the idiot Batman has tried to disable several times.

I think the implication here is that Batman is not a force for good like Spiderman and Superman. Am I right in assuming you think so? I don't think this can be farther from the truth. The contrast between Batman and Superman in The Dark Knight Returns is instructive: Frank Miller's essential message of that book is about power. Superman willingly becomes a slave to it, while Batman fights against it when it interferes with his own quest to defend Gotham. And that's what made Batman the hero of that book and a hero quite generally.

You also brought up Spiderman's self-restraint. Undoubtedly, he has it. But do you think Batman lacks it?

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, Batman's will is also second to none. Of course, a part of it is insanity. Not like Kirk, who fought off that machine in Dagger of the Mind, those spores in A Taste of Paradise, etc etc.

Like I just said about Cat for Marvel, Batman is among the top few martial artists in DC. He's also the world's greatest detective, which means he's damned smart. The reason he does so well is more his brain than his fighting, but the fighting's a lot more fun to watch.

All that being said, Spiderman would kick his ass. Batman would never lay a glove on him, and Spiderman would be warned of anything tricky. Unless, as I said, Bats set up serious stuff ahead of time.

Bats beats Moonknight easily. Widow gives Bats a hell of a fight, but loses.


Null, Iron Fist was beating the snot out of Iron Man, but couldn't hurt him in the least, even with the iron fist. Eventually, Iron Man had had enough.

dAN, do you really think Wolverine would do better against Batman than he did against Danny? Of course, if it had continued, Wolverine would have eventually sliced him up. I guess the same with Batman. But as for fighting, Wolverine is the worst martial artist in Marvel. He has never won a fight against a martial artist that I've seen. Guys like Iron Fist and Ogun are waaaaaaaaay out of his league. No, they can't defeat him, but their skills are miles beyond his. Even the freakin' Silver Samurai beat him!!

[Lord Mhoram]

Fist,

Unless, as I said, Bats set up serious stuff ahead of time.

Knowing what we know about Batman as readers, I think that is a realistic scenario.

[sgt.null]

fist: good points. Wolverine has the claws and healing factor, but he is a brawler. as to the fights.

I give round one to the Widow over Bats. shw has the stingers and depending on the writer can be more ruthless than Bats. after that I think Bats would defeat her.

btw - Black Canary with scream should hand Bats his ass. without she could still beat him, but he wins in the end.

Moon Knight - again it depends on the writer. the Knight has had times where he teetered on lunancy. but in the end I think Bats would defeat him.

Iron Fist should be able to beat anyone hand to hand in the DC Universe. add the Fist and he clobbers them.

who does DC have? Shiva, Bronze Tiger, the newest Batgirl, Batman, Richard Dragon, Black Canary. did I miss any of the top ones?

[dlbpharmd]

The best martial artist in DC was Karate Kid. He could fight Superboy to a standstill.

[sgt.null]

The best martial artist in DC was Karate Kid. He could fight Superboy to a standstill.

yes. i forgot about him. he is alive again.

[dlbpharmd]

The best martial artist in DC was Karate Kid. He could fight Superboy to a standstill.

yes. i forgot about him. he is alive again.

No one is ever truly dead in comics - but his death (at the hands of Nemesis) was one of the best ever.

[Fist and Faith]

I just noticed that I had DC folks in the Marvel group. Nobody said anything?? I think I'll let it stay that way!!

Asano Nitobe, the guy who trained Manhunter. (Paul Kirk, that is.)
Connor Hawke did VERY VERY well against Shiva. She's probably the best, so he's waaaay up there.

[sgt.null]

haven't seen Nitobe since. so i couldn't guess his range.

Conner is a good call. is he dead though?

dlb - it is hard to keep track of all of the LSH revamps.