'Thomas Covenant' and swearing

[shadowbinding shoe]

I didn't reread the first and second chronicles before starting on FR so I'm not sure if I'm just misremembering things but,

Doesn't the fake Thomas Covenant have a different voice than the original Thomas Covenant? Case in point, his use of swear words. Did Thomas Covenant swear like that in the first two chronicles? This TC use them in an irreverent mocking tone, the original uses them from inner pain and repressed burning passions.

Was it believable that someone with this voice was the same person we meet in the first two chronicles? And shouldn't Linden have noticed these discrepancies? He may have stopped loving her but could his voice change that much as well? Or am I just distorting my memories of the original chronicles?

[earthbrah]

Your memories of the first two Chronicles is essentially intact, shadowbinding shoe, at least as far as TC's swearing is concerned.

The real TC only ever said "hellfire", "hell and blood", "damnation", etc. Never words like "fuck" that the fake TC used several times in the first part of FR.

And yes, perhaps Linden should have recognized this difference. She did recognize it, but didn't penetrate what it meant. Her son's presence clouded her judgement of being certain about such a thing.

[drew]

I think that Rogers profane langue was meant as a clue to us readers, that it wasn't really Thomas.

[earthbrah]

His language was certainly meant as a clue to the readers that he was NOT the real TC.

I bet that Roger meant them as a taunt to Linden. I bet that s.o.b. just loved messing with her that way, loved mocking his father and Linden at the same time. And Linden continued to chalk it up to the idea that TC had changed too much over the millenia of being united with Time.

[drew]

Oh yeah..Roger is an evil rpick thats for sure.

I wonder who he hates more,Thomas or LInden...or himself?

[tedzilla99]

Not to burst your bubbles, but TC and Linden are both swearing more than they did in the first 2 Chronicles. So, since SRD has added that dimension to both of them, Roger doing all that swearing shouldn't be that noticeable. I think the biggest clue was his constant demanding of the ring and also his constant complaining about the Staff.

[earthbrah]

That's true, Linden is swearing more in this series. I found it odd, but she is pissed a lot of the time, under great stress most all of the time.

If I were in the Land in such straits, I sure wouldn't be holding back on the explatives, that's for f@%kin' god#*@n sure!!!

[amanibhavam]

Not to burst your bubbles, but TC and Linden are both swearing more than they did in the first 2 Chronicles.

Where do we hear TC swear in the 3rd Chronicles? I cannot recall any such occasion, but my memory is not what it used to be...

[shadowbinding shoe]

Not to burst your bubbles, but TC and Linden are both swearing more than they did in the first 2 Chronicles.

Where do we hear TC swear in the 3rd Chronicles? I cannot recall any such occasion, but my memory is not what it used to be...

Roger swears a lot while impersonating his father. Thomas in the visions and the little snatch at the end of the book didn't.

[amanibhavam]

Ah but that's Roger, not his father, there is no question about him swearing...

[Aleksandr]

I believe that SRD mentioned in the GI that his former editors (the Delrays) were fairly prudish, in a more prudish era, so full-court obscenities were not allowed in the first two chronicles.

[shadowbinding shoe]

So is Roger's imitation swearing unrealistic and overdone or not? That is the question.

[wayfriend]

I thought it was entertaining and intriguing. I wasn't bothered.

[shadowbinding shoe]

But I thought we were talking within the story. Is Roger's swearing a dead giveaway that he is not in fact the Thomas Covenant we met in previous books or is it the way the real Thomas Covenant would have talked if the editor gave him the freedom to swear freely?

For me the act was too badly done for me to believe this could really be TC and I thought the story would have been better if the discrepancies weren't so glaring (but still not glaring enough for the characters in the story)

[wayfriend]

Oh.

Honestly ... I felt that the swearing was within Covenant's range. That is, I thought it possible that he *could* swear like that if enough things happened to him.

It wasn't the swearing that got me suspicious. Which is probably why I didn't guess it was Roger.

The first thing that made me suspicious was when he talked about Foul being in Revelstone and Kevin not noticing. And I suddenly thought -- oh my god, it's Foul, he's in Revelstone again, and Linden is not even noticing, and he's totally giving her clues. Or maybe a Raver and not Foul.

Then of course I looked for other clues. Swearing wasn't even on the list. What was on the list (which I wrote down at the time, before I read "show me the truth", and pasted below) to me pointed to Foul or Ravers - Roger never even got on my radar.

- Esmer tells Linden good things go bad, because of Ravers – hint, Covenant has gone bad!
- Covenant talks about how Foul was not recognized when he was a Lord in Revelstone – hint.
- They don’t want Linden to touch them - because she would feel the Marid-style heat, and lie to cover it up.
- The don’t like Earthpower - because it’s anathema to them, and they lie to cover it up.
- Covenant warms up Linden exactly like Foul gave Covenant health in TPTP.
- Of course, their entire attitude towards Linden.
- Covenant would not let the Theomach say who Covenant was.
- Linden is warned to use the Earthblood first – to stop Covenant, probably.
- The lightning that they used to go back in time is similar to the summoning lightning in Runes.
- The “other” Covenant who is supportive and nice.
- Jeremiah’s facial tic points to a conflicted personality or possession.
- The Mahdoubt fleeing Revelstone – why would she be afraid of the real Covenant?

[shadowbinding shoe]

Oh.
Then of course I looked for other clues. Swearing wasn't even on the list. What was on the list (which I wrote down at the time, before I read "show me the truth", and pasted below) to me pointed to Foul or Ravers - Roger never even got on my radar.

- Esmer tells Linden good things go bad, because of Ravers – hint, Covenant has gone bad!
- Covenant talks about how Foul was not recognized when he was a Lord in Revelstone – hint.
- They don’t want Linden to touch them - because she would feel the Marid-style heat, and lie to cover it up.
- The don’t like Earthpower - because it’s anathema to them, and they lie to cover it up.
- Covenant warms up Linden exactly like Foul gave Covenant health in TPTP.
- Of course, their entire attitude towards Linden.
- Covenant would not let the Theomach say who Covenant was.
- Linden is warned to use the Earthblood first – to stop Covenant, probably.
- The lightning that they used to go back in time is similar to the summoning lightning in Runes.
- The “other” Covenant who is supportive and nice.
- Jeremiah’s facial tic points to a conflicted personality or possession.
- The Mahdoubt fleeing Revelstone – why would she be afraid of the real Covenant?

This is interesting! And quite comprehensive.

The lightning similarity between the summoning and the jumps C&J inflict on her is especially intriguing. Was it specifically desribed as lightning? I remember an arch of light forming between their raised hands. Made me think it was a representation of the Arch of Time.

And did the Mahdoubt flee? I think she knew once she warned Linden there was nothing more to be said that would make a difference. Linden had to discover proof of the truth we learn later by herself or she wouldn't be sure enough to act on what she's told. Or maybe it's that same theme of nobody must tell Linden things in order to preserve her free will.

[Relayer]

Good list. I didn't mind the swearing either. It isn't nearly as over the top as in the Gap, and is in context w/ Linden cussing a bit herself.

I also didn't see it as a clue about Roger. I noticed some of the things in your list, and also (in retrospect) there are lots of subtle hints where "TC" has fiery eyes (at the time they just seem like metaphors), or other places where Donaldson juxtaposes comments that now seem obvious.

The other thing I noticed was that Roger is almost never mentioned, Linden doesn't think about him often, etc... almost like trying to get us to forget about Roger.

[wayfriend]

The lightning similarity between the summoning and the jumps C&J inflict on her is especially intriguing. Was it specifically desribed as lightning? I remember an arch of light forming between their raised hands. Made me think it was a representation of the Arch of Time.

It was described as lightning. "Lightning completed the arch over her head, striking like the devastation of worlds from Jeremiah's fingertips to Covenant's." ... "The fierce arc of lightning lingered momentarily, burned onto her retinas."

And did the Mahdoubt flee?

She was there when Linden ran to the balcony; then she was suddenly gone from Revelstone. After having been there for apparently some time. My impression was, she didn't want to meet whomever Covenant was. In retrospect, I think Roger would have had to slay her if he had thought she would help Linden against him. (Which the Theomach was wise enough to not do.)

[wayfriend]

Interestingly enough, today in saw this:

Tom: Dear Stephen,

I, like some others, must confess that I felt an initial twinge of disappointment when Linden's earthblood swig exposed "Covenant's" true identity -- only because I felt that I had spent the entire book avoiding jumping to an "obvious" conclusion (though I'll confess I might not have guessed it was Roger -- maybe a Raver? -- but I can be dumb that way), and so when Roger was exposed, I was like "well, duh." BUT, what I'm beginning to understand now, months after having read the book, is that the execution of this was a stroke of genius on your part, because even though it did turn out that Covenant was not who he was (which was what I "knew"), you successfully prevented me from fully leaping to this conclusion despite some very obvious signs. And I can't quite put my finger on why you succeeded in this. You, perhaps, wanted (or expected?) us to want to jump to that conclusion, and yet/so made it impossible to truly accept that before Linden figured it out because of our own stake in Linden's judgment and her emotional need for Covenant's presence and help. That, clearly, differs significantly from a standard "twist," and I think it goes without saying that if you wanted to "surprise" us you could have easily been more tricky about Roger's ruse. It seems you chose a "hide in plain sight" approach rather than cheap tricks.

Thanks.

p.s. I really loved the GAP books, and would love to see more. I find it hard to believe that the Amnion are going to let Angus gallivant around the galaxy having beaten their butts red. If nothing else, it's bad for business…

• Thank you! I'm glad I succeeded.
  
  I do make a distinction between "surprising" and merely "startling" the reader/audience. Startling is easy, and often relies on "cheap tricks": e.g. using a tight focus on the POV character so that the reader/audience can't see the monster approaching. But a surprise, as I define it, has to be both unexpected as it happens and inevitable in retrospect. So your "well, duh" reaction is one of the (many) effects I was trying to achieve.
  
  (05/14/2008)

[shadowbinding shoe]

Something else about Covenant's swearing. He, like his father uses the word Hellfire a lot. But in this book, during the trip to the past you really feel it. Every time Linden gets cold he baths her in hellfire. Come to think of it maybe he has a lot in common with Satan. Within the familial context of the Covenant (+Linden) family, Thomas Covenant is god, Linden the holy spirit, Roger Satan, maybe Anele as Jesus figure

What do you think?