Linden and Ceer

[Evans Caamora]

Yea, I'm another one re-reading the first 6 books to get a better understanding of the Last Chronicles....anyway...sorry if this is a spoiler for anyone, but it deals strictly with events in TOT.

The whole scene of Linden supposedly killing Ceer and the reactions of the Haruchai is confusing me. It seems like while escaping from Bhrathairealm that Ceer dived infront of Linden to save her from a spear that was thrown by the hustin guards. Then, while Ceer is lying there mortally wounded, but still alive, Linden takes the shaft of the spear and shoves it deeper into his throat finishing him off while having some flashback to her father's suicide. Was this because she basically, 'wanted to put him out of his misery'? I didn't necessarily detect any ill will on Linden's part outside of the fact that she was still sort of under the influence of the Elohim trance thing that she'd taken from TC. Why isn't Ceer's effort to save Linden from the Spear noted by the other Haruchai, and his death accepted as a tragic but noble effort? Brinn states that he wants to punish Linden by forcing her to state the Sandgorgon's name, effectively wishing her dead.

Then in one of the strangest segues imaginable, TC confronts Linden about all this. Basically, tells the Haruchai to shut the hell up. Then, Linden reveals how she actually killed her mother by stuffing Kleenexes into her mouth. TC and Linden become lovers and strut out onto the deck of the Starfare's Gem with all the Giants giggling about the apparent tryst.

I must be missing something.

[Blackhawk]

when linden attempted to Kill Ceer she was under Covenants Elohim SIlence...i just got through this part and it says that the exact situation they were going through with the blood all over her and Ceer wounded, she was seeing her father killing himself even though it looked like Ceer the situation in her mind was showing her the scene of her fathers death again..the reason she tried to kill her father instead of help him could be that she had enough of her black moods and nightmares springing from that part of her life..killing her father may have finished that endless cycle, if He wanted to die so bad she would help him on his way.

her brain was recieving input but it was being translated into her father killing himself all over. im sure some others will give a little more insight to why she actually did it, but that was the only reasoning i could come up with outside the written explanation.

[dlbpharmd]

Linden didn't actually stab Ceer, Brinn or Cail kicked her arm and diverted her aim.

[SoulBiter]

They dont trust Linden. Put yourself in the Haruchai's place. One of their own sacrified himself to save Lindens life. He wasnt dead yet and then they watch as she tries to kill him.

Her only excuse was this 'silence' that she took on herself and as the Haruchai have said.... "When TC was silenced, he did no harm to anyone". They believe that she is the 'hand of corruption'

[High Lord Tolkien]

I must be missing something.

Your THOOLAH membership forms are in the mail.
We meet every 3rd Thursday at around 8PM for a few hours.
There is much drinking, eating, revelry and Linden hating.
Funny hats are optional (usually depends on how much of the aforementioned "drinking" takes place).



I think the Haruchai suffered Linden to live beyond the point where they accused her on Starfare's Gem because of TC's intervention on her behalf and him alone.
They respected and trusted him utterly.

[wayfriend]

As far as the "seque": TC loved Linden. And she just enabled their rescue. So he gave her a chance to state her position. Seems reasonable.

They became lovers because after Linden revealed all this, she said "You should've let Brinn punish me," and Covenant replied "No. Don't you understand that I love you?" A pretty big revelation. Romance ensued.

Love? Her mouth tried to shape the word and could not. With that avowal, he changed everything. In an instant, her world seemed to become different than it was, Stumbling forward, she confronted him. He was pallid with exhaustion, damaged by the pressure of his doom. The old knife-cut marked the center of his stained shirt like the stroke of fatality. But his passion resonated against the added dimension of her hearing; and she was suddenly alive and trembling. [...] He was rife with venom and leprosy; but she recognized those things, accepted them. Before he could retreat, she caught her left arm around him, raised her right as high as she could to hold him.

For a moment longer, he strove against himself, stood rigid and unyielding in her clasp. But then he surrendered. His arms closed around her, and his mouth came down on hers as if he were falling.

Works for me.

[SleeplessOne]

Brinn states that he wants to punish Linden by forcing her to state the Sandgorgon's name, effectively wishing her dead.

I found that to be one of the most darkly amusing parts of the entire chronicles, I actually laughed out loud, the extremity of the Haruchai at it's finest ..

[Sill]

I know we're suppose to "like and respect" LA, but I'm still waiting to be convinced. I even want to like her, but, you have to admit that being screwed up from a bad childhood experience is weak stuff when trying to convince the Haruchai - it would be weak in trying to convince you too if she was trying to kill your family member who had just saved her life.

Putting myself in Brinn or Cail's place, I'd be really leery of her...as much as I respect TC, he may have been blinded by love/lust - the new bloodguard weren't.

[deer of the dawn]

I am not convinced that "like and respect" is SRD's goal for Linden. I think he asks more of his readers. I think he wants us to try to understand their choices (whether or not you agree with them) and go along for the journey.

Personally, I have a strong rapport with Linden. I am not always likeable. I struggle with self-doubt from a damaged childhood. I have made bad choices based on emotional thinking.

I guess I understand maybe not liking Linden. But show me where she does something not "respectable". Because maybe don't LIKE her and therefore don't want to respect her.

[Relayer]

Putting myself in Brinn or Cail's place, I'd be really leery of her...as much as I respect TC, he may have been blinded by love/lust - the new bloodguard weren't.

That's a good point. But remember, Brinn and Cail later withdrew from Covenant's service because of lust (though what they felt with the merewives would require a stronger word than simply "lust"). They do understand such things.

[Sill]

I am not convinced that "like and respect" is SRD's goal for Linden. I think he asks more of his readers. I think he wants us to try to understand their choices (whether or not you agree with them) and go along for the journey.

But show me where she does something not "respectable". Because maybe don't LIKE her and therefore don't want to respect her.

Somewhere in the GI SRD does jump on people who say they hate her and says he loves her, I believe. And although I agree wth your response of understanding her choices DOES mean a respect of and for her. I'm still trying though!

As to showing something she's done that's not respectable - uh, trying to kill a helpless and dying Ceer who has served her and TC faithfully and saved their lives countless times. I don't buy the excuse - again, I know we're supposed to in the story - but in real life - neither you nor I would and that's how we can understand Brinn and Cail - we wouldn't give her a pass on that.

[Zal Remmos]

Forget Linden and Ceer; the attitude of the Haruchai bother me no end in these chronicles. Why? The Haruchai aways judged others on a different scale than most people. They didn't trust TC originally either.

But what gets me, is that Donaldson wants us readers to not to trust Linden either.

When Linden and Cail were suffering from Sunbane fever, after Vain carried her away to safety, she told TC to give them Voure to cure the fever (which was according to Sunder, deadly). At first, TC doesn't understand, until she informs him that "she feels" - TC then understood (as he states later) that her mind is clear, and to get the voure.

To which Brinn argues that it is useless, and that the sunbane sickness is fatal. He doesn't get it until TC yells at him to get it, and Brinn pretty much gives him attitude about it, until it eases Linden's shakes and tells them to give some to Cail.

Why should Brinn argue? He isn't a healer. Sure Sunder has experience with Sunbane sickness, but then again he also thought that treasure berries were the most deadliest of poisons.

Then, after the company meet the Elohim, and they (the Elohim) wanted to question the questors seperately, the Haruchai refuse and try to attack the Elohim, even though they were warned about the power of the Elohim and not to offend or upset them by the Giants. What the hell?

The Elohim then change their forms to ensare the Haruchai - clearly supernatural beings who far surpass the abilities of the Haruchai - and then get upset when Linden tells them to put them out instead of meteing out graver punishment - effectively saving their lives. As they are being cast out, they warn Linden that they don't trust the Elohim - but what can any of the party do against them, especially if the Haruchai couldn't?

So then at the Elohimfest, they "take away" TC's mind, laugh at them (the rest of the questors) and then throw them out, where they meet the Haruchai, who want to know what happened to TC, and immediately blame Linden for his condition, even though TC brought it upon himself.

How could have Linden stopped anything the Elohim wanted to do once they set their minds to it? She had no power, other than the ability to hear their silent "chiming" language - which was slow to come.

Why didn't the Giants try to explain it to the Haruchai? Even after they were on the ship?

Was it the Haruchai's pride that was hurt, because now the rest of the company could see that they weren't as omnipotent as they wanted them to believe?

Then, they (the Haruchai) are mad at Linden because she falls under Kasreyn's spell with the golden occular, and Brinn doesn't, so they then don't trust her.

But later, both Brinn & Hergrom fall to Lady Alif's ploy and get knocked out by some sleeping powder, yet no one accuses them of being less than what they are, or just plain human.

And then what? The Haruchai turn matters around, and blame Linden for not giving them permission to kill Kasreyn - yet the First of the Search also denied them, stating that Giants "don't murder".

So the next day, when Ceer & Hergrom face Nom, Cail grabs Linden's arm and squeezes it as he blames her for the situation - but isn't the First equally "guilty"?

Why don't the Haruchai say anything against Findail? He, along with Vain (who really doesn't do anything at this point but act as a walking statue) didn't stop Lady Alif, nor call for help as she leads TC away?

Findail only helps out (by killing Kasreyn), because he doesn't want to answer TC's questions? Even though the Elohim "don't take life"? At any time, Findail could have either froze the people around them and taken the Questors back to the Giantship or did something - but never did. Okay, there wouldn't have been much of a story if he did, but the only thing he did was tell TC not to do things, but never really gives a good explaination for anything, so why should any of the Questors listen to him - heck - why should he even be around at all? But I digress....

So Brinn & Cail don't trust Linden, and then want her death because she attempted Ceer's life while under the influence of TC's silence from the Elohim (which she took upon herself so that TC could regain himself). I don't know what Donaldson had in mind here, except to further distance Linden from the rest of the Questors.

Then, after the Meriwives, Brinn and Cail "removed their objections" against Linden because they fell under the spell of the Meriwives, and considered themselves unworthy.

But we aren't quite done yet, are we? Brinn battles the Guardian of the One Tree and wins, opening the way to the One Tree for TC & company. Why doesn't he warn TC of the dangers ahead? Why didn't Findail say something more concrete BEFORE TC lost control? Why does he wait to tell Linden until TC is on the verge of utter destruction what the Despiser's plans were?

Again, I digress...

[shadowbinding shoe]

Yep. This freedom of choice through ignorance doesn't sit well with me either. We can open a newspaper or listen to the radio and see that even when everyone has the same knowledge they can still argue and decide to act in different ways.

Findail by the way was just trying to have things his way by throwing the company into dire situations in the hope that they'll despair and do as he want (like giving him the ring). He doesn't want them to succeed on their own terms.

[Zarathustra]

I know we're suppose to "like and respect" LA, but I'm still waiting to be convinced. I even want to like her, but, you have to admit that being screwed up from a bad childhood experience is weak stuff when trying to convince the Haruchai . . .

I agree, but this is Donaldson's M.O. Think about Angus. His horrible childhood is supposed to help us understand his brutality, and engender our forgiveness. I don't agree with this thinking, but you've got to take it into account when reading Donaldson.

Now, do we know any other people mistreated as children? Roger taken from his father? Jeremiah getting his hand burnt . . . ? (Hope that's not a spoiler, since the mistreatment happened in the 1st and 2nd Chrons).

[Unfettered One]

Now, do we know any other people mistreated as children? Roger taken from his father? Jeremiah getting his hand burnt . . . ? (Hope that's not a spoiler, since the mistreatment happened in the 1st and 2nd Chrons).

Pietten?

[wayfriend]

Think about Angus. His horrible childhood is supposed to help us understand his brutality, and engender our forgiveness.

Understanding, yes. It makes Angus plausible. But forgiveness, no. The story is undermind if his actions are forgivable.

It's Morn and the crew who do the forgiving, for the reasons the story gives. And even then, it's not so much forgiving as forgoing retribution.

I can't help but notice that the details of his childhood aren't given in book one, where he is victimizing and brutal, but in book three onward, where he is the victim of the zone implant. All of the memories of the crib go towards how he is especially vulnerable to his welding --- and to how he is eventually able to overcome it. I don't think it goes very far at all towards explaining rape and murder and theft.

[amanibhavam]

I think it goes as far as he becomes a victimizer rather than ever being victimized again. As SRD puts it all of his actions were governed by fear, fear that somebody will have total control over him again. And that's precisely what happens to him.

[SoulBiter]

Why didn't Findail say something more concrete BEFORE TC lost control? Why does he wait to tell Linden until TC is on the verge of utter destruction what the Despiser's plans were?

Again, I digress...

This was answered in the second chapter of WGW. TC asks Findal why he didnt warn him about what was happening or could happen. Its not much of an answer but its an answer.

"Perhaps in that I erred," he said softly, "Yet I could not turn aside from hope. It was my hope that some access of wisdom or courage would inspire the ring-wielder to step back from the precipice of his intent."

[Relayer]

"Perhaps in that I erred," he said softly, "Yet I could not turn aside from hope. It was my hope that some access of wisdom or courage would inspire the ring-wielder to step back from the precipice of his intent."

Yes, and perhaps by telling him what was going on, you could have helped the ringwielder to access that wisdom.

And even then, it's not so much forgiving as forgoing retribution.

Very similar to Triock...

[wayfriend]

I see Findail's motivations as a bit more complicated.

There's an important bit of information that Donaldson revealed in the Gradual Interview that I think wasn't stated well in the story. And that is this: Vain's transformation was necessary for creating the new Staff of Law. It wasn't just an accident that provided a clue to Vain's purpose; it was a mandatory element of his purpose. If it did not happen, no new Staff could have been created, as there would not have been anything of the One Tree in it.

Surely Vain knew this. And Findail must have known this, too.

So the moment when Vain is transformed is a critical turning point. If Vain is turned around and sent back to the Land before this moment, he fails. But once the moment is reached, there is no more need to be on the Isle, and the danger is that Vain will be destroyed or sunk with the Isle.

It doesn't surprise me that Findail acts differently on both sides of that critical moment. But what changes for him, and why, is hard to fathom.

Let's assume, for a moment, that this is something similar to why Findail healed Vain after the warped ur-viles attacked him. That is, Findail may wish Vain's purposes to be abandoned, but if not abandoned, he fears it going wrong more than going well.

This fits. Findail didn't warn anyone about the Despiser's plan UNTIL Vain was transformed because he feared Linden trying to merge them without the essence of the One Tree. However, once Vain was transformed, it became time to get out of Dodge.

In the text, it's about one page from when Vain is transformed to when Findail shouts "You must stop him". About twenty seconds in real time, maybe.