Externalizations

[SkurjMaster]

I am not sure if this has received its own topic, but here it goes.

SRD has said that he prefers stories in which the environment of the characters are exernalizations of the character's inner struggle or turmoil (paraphrase). So, which pieces of the environment of the current Chronicles are externalizations of the main character?

I'll throw one out. I believe that Covenant, having exited our world is now part of the Land's world and is part of this externalization for Linden. And I mean that in a particular and unique way. We represents what is lost and also power.

Maybe another speculative one. Is Jeremiah conscious of the world around him? Is he 'trapped in his body?' If so, are there aspects of the Land that are part of an externalization for him?

I know I am not phrasing this very well, but I hope you guys and gals will understand my line of thought.

What do you all think?

[lurch]

Ha!...Skurg, you are basically soliciting for folks' acknowledgment of the Surreal. All as metaphor can be tricky business. Inner turmoils manifested in "fantasy reality" is like a double mirror effect. What is real and what is mere Illusion, one is easily lost in. But more importantly, what is Truth, is the only Real goal in the search for resolve of inner conflicts; the Truth being the answer to the Surreal question, Who Am I? This is Linden's inner quest externalized.

Therefore,,any suggestion i put forth, is how I perceive it. Any body else's is theirs. There is no wrong or better or worse. There is no " or". With that in mind consider:

Esmer...as The Surreal personified. He is the product of conflicting opposites. He is free of the constraints of Time,,and he talks and guides in terms that are beyond Lindens grasp. But she is getting to know him better with each exchange. There is a lot more to be said on Esmer as the Surreal,,so you mite want to keep an eye on the Dissection Thread.

[Rigel]

It's one of those situations where the question you ask is as important as the answer you get. As such, there's no way for anyone else to give you a good answer about the final reality of the Land. In fact, I'm not sure such an answer would even be important

[lurch]

It's one of those situations where the question you ask is as important as the answer you get. As such, there's no way for anyone else to give you a good answer about the final reality of the Land. In fact, I'm not sure such an answer would even be important

Important??..what?,,,any answer by any reader is a reflection of the author's Art thru the reader. The reader is made visible as much as the authors art. So..importance is non sequitor, because ALL answers are neither right nor wrong, but are Contributions to the Greater Whole of the authors Art,,A good answer..?? All answers are Good in that they help the expansion of understanding the authors art. The "final reality of the Land" is an individual's to have if one so chooses, ,,but,,one doesn't get there alone,,,,AND ,,,,as far as I can see,,the " end" of the Last Chrons..HAS TO BE,,opened ended. So i see no final reality of the Land..." Liberation" comes to mind in how authors bring an end to a popular creation. See Dune. " Liberation" has worked well as an Open Ended ending. Perhaps the example will be for us to follow.


any way.. Kevin's Dirt...Hows that for Irony?...it is like ..self defeatism. One becomes so accustomed to it,,that ya can't see its ill effects polluting ones Life. To me ,,anyway..there is a Great externalization of a inner perception problem.

[SkurjMaster]

Dear Posters and Readers,

As with any possible post, this one is sure to lead to other thoughts about the extant books, current books, and future books. So, think and post on! I, for one, do not question the reality of the Land. In the context of the story, the Land is real. From the perspective of TC and LA they have satisfied themselves that it is at least real enough. What happens there matters.

My reason for this thread, initially, was to explore the relationhip of the environment to the main character. For example, in the First Chrons the Land itself represented beauty and health, two things denied TC by his leprosy and outcast condition. The Despiser represented (I think) disease and self-loathing, the ability to turn your hatred inward. TC learns to deal better with his place in his own Reality. In the Second Chrons the condition of the Land under the Banefire represented Life and Death. TC comes to terms with his eminent demise and his inner despiser.

In the Final Chrons, given that LA is the person through whose eyes we see everything, what is she coming to grips with and how is that reflected in the Land around her? This coupled with such elements as time travel, the ring, the staff, and a resurrected TC should give clues as to how the story will progress and end. Of course, that realization will probably not make exactly how things will progress any easier to predict.

Just some thoughts.

[Rigel]

any way.. Kevin's Dirt...Hows that for Irony?...it is like ..self defeatism. One becomes so accustomed to it,,that ya can't see its ill effects polluting ones Life. To me ,,anyway..there is a Great externalization of a inner perception problem.

I like your thinking

Though it's not irony exactly, but definitely appropriate for Linden. The whole time, she's plagued by self-doubt. The Masters are a great reflection of her, as well: absolute in their judgement, as well as the answers they give themselves. In the same way, Linden is absolute and just as judgemental.

Someone else posted, and I'm wondering about it myself: is TC now a reflection of some inner part of Linden, or is he truly returning? We'll have to RAFO, of course, but there are interesting possibilities there!

[Zarathustra]

Donaldson said in the GI that his symbolic structure gets more complex as you move from the 1st Chrons to the 2nd, and I assume this applies to the 3rd, too. He said that complexity increases because in the 2nd, the Land is an externalization of both TC and LA. So we've got those two individual stories, but we've also got the story of their interaction. I believe this story element is also externalized by the Land.

What does that mean? I can't figure it out. But I'm starting to believe that TC hasn't been resurrected, but is in fact a part of her mind, the part that loves and misses him. What she did at the end of FR was an act of denial.

As for which parts of the Land's environment reflect the characters . . . which parts don't? The Land itself mirrors the physical condition of Covenant. I think the Illearth Stone's affects on the seasons mirror TC's physical degredation . . . the original trigger to his spiritual impotence in the form of leprosy in the real world. He is confronting his physical sickness in the first Chronicles, and the effects this has on his spirit.

And since Covenant achieved a victory in terms of emotional power (directing his will to finally *fight*), Foul attacks his emotional power in the 2nd Chronicles with the Sunbane: an attack upon Earthpower.

Time is the relationship between these two. Our emotion or will is directed through the body in time. Time is the existential structure of our action, and an inauthentic relationship towards time (inability to accept the past or face the future) cripples us on both levels. Time is the horizon that encompasses our struggles on both physical and spiritual levels. Thus, Foul is attacking time itself in the LC.

[Fits]

Donaldson said in the GI that his symbolic structure gets more complex as you move from the 1st Chrons to the 2nd, and I assume this applies to the 3rd, too. He said that complexity increases because in the 2nd, the Land is an externalization of both TC and LA. So we've got those two individual stories, but we've also got the story of their interaction. I believe this story element is also externalized by the Land.

What does that mean? I can't figure it out. But I'm starting to believe that TC hasn't been resurrected, but is in fact a part of her mind, the part that loves and misses him. What she did at the end of FR was an act of denial.

As for which parts of the Land's environment reflect the characters . . . which parts don't? The Land itself mirrors the physical condition of Covenant. I think the Illearth Stone's affects on the seasons mirror TC's physical degredation . . . the original trigger to his spiritual impotence in the form of leprosy in the real world. He is confronting his physical sickness in the first Chronicles, and the effects this has on his spirit.

And since Covenant achieved a victory in terms of emotional power (directing his will to finally *fight*), Foul attacks his emotional power in the 2nd Chronicles with the Sunbane: an attack upon Earthpower.

Time is the relationship between these two. Our emotion or will is directed through the body in time. Time is the existential structure of our action, and an inauthentic relationship towards time (inability to accept the past or face the future) cripples us on both levels. Time is the horizon that encompasses our struggles on both physical and spiritual levels. Thus, Foul is attacking time itself in the LC.

I like this. Foul is attacking Time itself and time is the backbone to Story. By tearing up Time, Lord Foul is unravelling Linden's personal story - the narrative she has created for herself.