Why is TC the wild magic?

[Valion]

I'm having a lot fun reading all the stuff you guys have written, all the questions you guys have about these books. Now you are making me think too much, but you get what you pay for.

Ok, I was just thinking that I really don't understand the ending to the second chronicles. I thought I did, but now I think I missed something.

As I remember it, TC dies, becomes one with wild magic and defender of the arch of time, Lord Foul spends himself completely trying to batter his way through TC with wild magic, and then TC explains to Linden that he is the white gold/wild magic and all is good.

What does it mean that he IS the wild magic or the white gold? (is there a difference?)

It seems like everyone in the books who get their hands on the ring can use wild magic instantly (Lord Foul, Hile Troy, etc.). TC's use of wild magic doesn't seem any different except that he has such a hard time with it (doesn't know how in the 1st set, has too much power in the 2nd). Why is TC different? Why is he the WG/WM and gets to merge with WM after he is killed? Could anyone who is wearing the ring when they die merge with the WM? (well, its simplistic, but since he is the only to die with one on, maybe)

WM is the keystone of the arch of time so if he merges with WM, it makes sense that he can defend the arch of time. I just don't understand where this merging comes from. I know I never thought about it at the time because it was just one of those writer tricks where the character 'finds' himself. 'I found myself, I am wild magic!' Meh. Now though, I'm a bit more curious about this. Hopefully I've forgotten something that will explain it perfectly.

spoiler

Spoiler

But in the third series, are the caesures created by wild magic? If they are then TC should be able to instantly snuff them out, or stop their creation. He is joined with wild magic and time, they shouldn't even exist.

[Zenlunatic]

I've always assumed that it was his immersion in the Banefire, where he essentially becomes an "alloy" of wild magic and venom that allows him to later become part of the Arch. But that's just my interpretation.

Spoiler

As to your spoiler question, yes, the ceasures are created by Wild Magic, but now that Covenant is a part of the Arch I always assumed that any attempt to "influence" events in such a way would break the Arch. It seems to take him a lot of effort just to communicate with Linden. But again that's just how I read it.

[Valion]

I forgot about the banefire alloy thing. I'll have to think about that.

spoiler

Spoiler

yes, I don't think he can influence the world, but I felt that at the end of WGW he was the 'guardian' of time by being a part of wild magic. He shut Lord Foul down pretty effectively. I see the ceasures as another attack on time using wild magic so I would expect TC to shut them down as well. Maybe since they are a perversion of time and not a attack on time itself he can't do anything?

[Zenlunatic]

I forgot about the banefire alloy thing. I'll have to think about that.

spoiler

Spoiler

yes, I don't think he can influence the world, but I felt that at the end of WGW he was the 'guardian' of time by being a part of wild magic. He shut Lord Foul down pretty effectively. I see the ceasures as another attack on time using wild magic so I would expect TC to shut them down as well. Maybe since they are a perversion of time and not a attack on time itself he can't do anything?

Spoiler

Hmmm...hard to say since we don't know much about what it's like for Covenant to be a part of the Arch of Time. Perhaps in the next book some of this will be answered.

[deer of the dawn]

Isn't Mhoram's statement actually, "You are the white gold", not "You are the wild magic"?

Not everyone who gets the white gold can use it instantly. Linden Avery doesn't. (and I'm not recalling Hile Troy having and using it either, but maybe that one slipped past my synapses.)

A lot of Covenant's "inability" to use the ring is directly linked to his profound unwillingness to use it.

Still, if he IS the white gold, why does he need to have the ring in his possession? Does he need it?

Spoiler

And if he needed it before dying, does he anymore?

[Zenlunatic]

Isn't Mhoram's statement actually, "You are the white gold", not "You are the wild magic"?

Not everyone who gets the white gold can use it instantly. Linden Avery doesn't. (and I'm not recalling Hile Troy having and using it either, but maybe that one slipped past my synapses.)

A lot of Covenant's "inability" to use the ring is directly linked to his profound unwillingness to use it.

Still, if he IS the white gold, why does he need to have the ring in his possession? Does he need it?

Spoiler

And if he needed it before dying, does he anymore?

Yes, that is what Mhoram told him, it's all wrapped into the "paradox" of white gold (not of the Land/needed to save the Land) and the paradox of Covenant himself (savior/helpless). But I'll be the first to admit that I probably don't understand everything SRD was trying to say with regards to all the paradoxes involving Covenant and white gold.

Hile Troy gets the ring briefly at the end of the Illearth War, he wants to go save Elena with it (Covenant throws it to him), and he does actually cause fire to spring from it if I'm not mistaken. Caerroil Wildwood turns him into a tree at that point and the ring falls back to Covenant.

[ff7hero]

Isn't Mhoram's statement actually, "You are the white gold", not "You are the wild magic"?

Not everyone who gets the white gold can use it instantly. Linden Avery doesn't. (and I'm not recalling Hile Troy having and using it either, but maybe that one slipped past my synapses.)

A lot of Covenant's "inability" to use the ring is directly linked to his profound unwillingness to use it.

Still, if he IS the white gold, why does he need to have the ring in his possession? Does he need it?

Spoiler

And if he needed it before dying, does he anymore?

In the end of the Illearth War, after Covenant has emerged from beneath MS with Bannor and meets up with HT and co at Gallow's Howe, the folks at Gallow's Howe are watching the still raging battle between Elena and Dead Kevin within MS. Troy demands that Covenant aid Elena with the wild magic, but Covenant gives him the ring instead. HT throws some big blasts pretty quickly. I was surprised that Covenant never thought about this while he's trying to figure out how to call out the wild magic.

[Zenlunatic]

One thing I've been curious about and perhaps it was discussed in another thread somewhere, but Covenant gives the ring to Troy, which we know is required in order to "take full advantage" of it (must be freely given). But when Troy is turned into a tree, he does not willingly return the ring to Covenant. Caerroil Wildwood has changed him and the ring just sort of gets returned to Covenant, it is not freely given (at least that's how it appears).

[Borillar]

This might be answered via a question to the GI I submitted about 4 years ago, and more specifically SRD's response:

JP: I have a question about the nature of personal choice as it relates to Covenant's ring. Covenant tells Linden that the reason that Foul hasn't simply possessed him with a Raver to obtain the ring is that it has to be given by choice in order for its power to be unlocked. And when Hile Troy is about to use its power, it was given to him willingly by Covenant. Yet:

1) Dead Elena is able to utilize it when it's forcibly swiped from Covenant in Power That Preserves, and

2) Linden is able to "possess" Covenant to use the ring at various times.

Are there explanations that fit these instances into the theory of personal choice?



<sigh> All of this would be so-o-o much easier if I hadn't *forgotten* that Covenant gives his ring to Troy in "The Illearth War" and has it taken from him by Elena in "The Power that Preserves." I tell ya, folks, internal consistency's a bitch.

The key points to keep in mind are "the necessity of freedom" and Mhoram's assertion to Covenant, "You are the white gold." So, taking the questions that have come up from easiest to most difficult:

Troy is able to raise power from the ring because a) Covenant gave it to him, and b) Covenant's will, his volition, supports what Troy wants to do with the ring (save Elena from dead Kevin).

Elena, of course, doesn't actually raise power from the ring, but there are a couple of reasons why she might have been able to do so. (In any case, she isn't bluffing when she threatens the Colossus. She *believes* she can exert wild magic. She has, after all, lost her mind.) Volition is a complex thing: there are unconscious as well as conscious choices. And sometimes the unconscious choices subvert the conscious ones. At that point in his struggle, Covenant must have been feeling a certain amount of "death wish" (why else would he even think about tackling Lord Foul when he believes he has no power?), and his unconscious volition might have enabled Elena to use the ring against him. In addition--on a somewhat more conscious level--Covenant has known for a while that external forces can trigger a response from the ring; and he may have been hoping (volition again) that Elena's use of the Staff would trigger a reaction she didn't expect.

Linden's actions raise even more complex issues (not the least of which is my still fallible memory) (and let's not even mention my unwillingness to spend an hour or two researching each question in this interview). She has an emotional bond with Covenant that goes far deeper than consciousness. And on those occasions when she "possesses" him, she always seeks to control him in ways with which some part of him agrees. He certainly doesn't *want* to destroy Starfare's Gem, and he isn't exactly eager to walk into the Banefire--just to pick two examples that happen to come to mind. In other words, she taps into his unconscious volition (not always wisely, I might add).

It follows, naturally, that a Raver--or Lord Foul himself--could not make use of the ring as Linden does. They don't love him; have no bond with him; share none of his impulses, conscious or otherwise. And so they cannot win the cooperation (if you will), the volition, of any of his complex impulses.

All of these points, as I'm sure you can see, depend on the identification between Covenant and the ring. Which raises interesting questions for "The Last Chronicles." Now that Linden has the ring, is *she* the white gold? Does it truly *belong* to her as it once did to Covenant? As Spock might have said (deadpan, of course), "Fascinating."

[Zenlunatic]

I just gave you an "official" thanks, so here's an old fashioned one too: Thanks! This clears up a lot....although it doesn't really address the question I had, did Troy voluntarily "give" the ring back to Covenant?

[ninjaboy]

I've always taken more from Pitchwife's phrasing of how TC comes to wield the Willd Magic:

'All power is an articulation of its wielder. There is no other source than life - and the desire of that life to express itself. But there must also be a means of articulation. I can say little but that this pitch is my chosen means. Having said that, I have left you scarce wiser than before.'
Linden shrugged away his disclaimer. 'Then what you're saying,' she murmered slowly, 'is that the power of wild magic comes from Covenant himself? The ring is just his - his means of articulation?'

I don't think this rules out the possibility of other people using the White Gold ring to invoke Wild Magic as long as Covenant shares the same passions as the new wielder - both he and Hile Troy loved Elena, for example.

I'd like to say more about the uses of Wild Magic and Linden's power of Healing but can't mention any of that in the 1st and 2nd Chrons Discussion..

[wayfriend]

Welcome to the Watch, Valion.

ninjaboy shares my thoughts on this. Covenant "is" the white gold, in that the power he weilds comes from within himself, his own passion. The white gold is just his "means of articulation" - it's just a device he needs to express his power.

He was ALWAYS the white gold. That didn't change at the end of the second chronicles, in the banefire, or in Foul's blasts. It was true from the beginning, he just never knew it until Mhoram clued him in.

What happened in the banefire was that he, wild magic, and venom became fused together inseperably. Then Lord Foul burned out the venom part, making him stronger. But he and wild magic are still together, and wild magic is the keystone of the Arch of Time, and now so is he. What specifically that means is the big question.

Yes, other people can use the white gold. They can use it to unleash their *own* power, their own passion.

And they can use it "instantly". Here, Covenant is the abnormal case - he's the only one who can't use it without a trigger. This arises from who he is, what he believes - he distrusts power so much that he cannot summon it purely by wanting it. The trigger is, in essence, an excuse.

Which is why the venom was a "moral" poison - it eroded Covenant's fundamental distrust of power, made it instantly accessible. Which was *bad*.

This whole "merging" concept - things becoming "one", physically, spiritually, magically, and/or logically - is one of the overarching issues Donaldson is exploring in the Second and Final Chronicles. The best clue we have to what he means is his explanation of the first Staff of Law, how it became necessary to Law. The Staff was used to enforce the Law so much that Law came to depend on it. So there is a sense that they became "one", but it's not a literal sense at all. It's something that is logical, and magical, and spiritual, all in one. (Logical, in that one can say "for all intents and purposes".)

Now we have to take that concepts we mean when we say Covenant "is" white gold, and the Staff of Law "is" Law, and figure out what we mean when we say Covenant "is" the Arch of Time. It's quite complex. And it surely isn't literal.

[Borillar]

I just gave you an "official" thanks, so here's an old fashioned one too: Thanks! This clears up a lot....although it doesn't really address the question I had, did Troy voluntarily "give" the ring back to Covenant?

Sorry, when I wrote "this may be answered", I wasn't referring specifically to your question about Hile Troy as much as the original question raised by the thread.

That said, even though Covenant gave the ring to Troy, I don't think he really passed over the wild magic as a whole. SRD's answer would suggest that the ring is just an implement to access Covenant's tie to the wild magic, and even if someone else has the ring, they don't have the wild magic itself without Covenant's volition. This is why Lord Foul doesn't simply rip the ring off Covenant's hand at the end of WGW; he needs Covenant to *agree* to let him (Lord Foul) use it. By this same token, Hile Troy doesn't need to return the ring to Covenant to return use of the wild magic to Covenant. Mhoram said to Covenant, "YOU are the white gold", but perhaps it would have been more accurate to say, "YOU are the wild magic."

[SGuilfoyle1966]

I think it's unwise to not follow what Mhoram saye. If he says TC is WG and not WM, he means it.
I'm surprised no one brought up the lore from Prothall.
There is wild magic graven in every rock, contained for white gold to unleash and wield.
But it is also referred to as white wild magic gold.
Are they the same thing or not?
I think not.
Dovernant is the articulation of wild magic. We know there is gold in the earth though rare. White gold is not of the earth.
But the wild magic is graven in EVERY rock.
TC is also not of the earth. I think he's the white gold throughout without being wild magic all the time.
And on the Hile Troy question, given what SRD said about him doign what Covenant wanted with the power, you also have to factor in the necessity of freedom.
HT had already sold himself to Caerroil Wildwood. He was a tool of Wildwood, and the ring was not freely given to him.
Wildwood was just a little worried that he might use the power in a way that would abrogate HT's promise to him, even though that wasn't a knowingly made promise.

[Valion]

Well, not to downplay the good responses here but I'm going to take Zenlunatic's first response and run with it. Why? It's exactly the type of answer I was looking for, something mechanical and logical not a bunch of high-falutin' philosophical jibberjabber

I love it, before the banefire he had to pull the wild magic out of the white gold just like anyone else, after the banefire he merged himself with the wild magic and venom and when his body was destroyed the venom was also, but his spirit stayed connected to the wild magic and he became a barrier to Lord Foul. It's perfect.

Mhoram's statement "you are the white gold" is the philosophical stuff that drives me batty. It may mean something, but who knows what it means? It certainly didn't allow TC to unleash the wild magic without an external source. And....ah, I'm not going to get into it, just raises to many questions. My primary question is answered, thank you Zenlunatic!

edit: also, good point by SG that HT didn't have free will and that CW essentially gave the ring back to TC. I like that explanation.

[Blackhawk]

Hile Troy didnt return the ring...Cerriol Wildwood Took Control before Troy could recant wildwoods claim upon him as SGuilfoyle said,

What Mhoram said about Thomas Covenant, I Took to mean that TC himself was the key to unlocking the wild magic Graven in every rock..... there is no way to tell if TC would have been able to unlock it without the ring...but one thing we do know...he was able to block the attempts at the Arch of time by Lord Foul after he had given the ring freely to Lord Foul...to me that means TC was the tool ..not the ring, Had TC said...I give myself to you freely the whole thing may have been different,...Foul tried to use the ring, but while TCs Soul/Specter was present he was unable to break the Arch.

the big question is - would TC have been able to use the wild magic without his ring? the songs say white gold was needed to unleash it, but since he was the white gold he could deflect or possibly use Wild magic without his ring. the only time TC was without his ring was when he Gave it to Foul, and then gave it to Linden after Foul was gone or told her to pick it up at least...that nothing was finished yet...

TC was the white gold created from Extreme Pressure and Trials of his humanity...an Alloy created from his surrounding and Circumstances, possibly the only combination that would work alongside wild magic, had Troy Kept the Ring would he have been able to use it the same way that TC did in the end? or would it have been Power, but less powerfull compared to the Illearth Stone?..was TC the necessary Key to combine white gold and wild magic to defeat the Despiser?

[Zenlunatic]

Thank you Valion for posting the question. One of the great things about SRD's work is that it illicits so much thought and everyone has their own interpretations of what it all means. I don't believe there is any WRONG answer to questions like these, each reader is different and I'm sure SRD would be happy that so many people can interpret the same text in so many different ways. If MY interpretation helped you, then I'm happy to have been of assistance.

[ff7hero]

but one thing we do know...he was able to block the attempts at the Arch of time by Lord Foul after he had given the ring freely to Lord Foul...to me that means TC was the tool ..not the ring, Had TC said...I give myself to you freely the whole thing may have been different,...

Hell, if Foul had gone straight for the Arch without killing Covenant first, then the whole thing would have been different....

[Valion]

Yes, and even tho it drives me batty that they haven't figured a way to stop Foul permanently (keeping fingers crossed for Last Chronicles), at least we have the satisfaction of knowing that twice now Foul has spent thousands of years kicking his own ass for being such a screw-up!

[Blackhawk]

but one thing we do know...he was able to block the attempts at the Arch of time by Lord Foul after he had given the ring freely to Lord Foul...to me that means TC was the tool ..not the ring, Had TC said...I give myself to you freely the whole thing may have been different,...

Hell, if Foul had gone straight for the Arch without killing Covenant first, then the whole thing would have been different....

true, a most likely possibility..or when Lord Foul started Attacking the arch, TC though still alive might have been that barrier...the wild magic would have killed him but once dead he would have been that barrier still, Foul should have just said..your dead...i command you to leave. end of story and time.

I'm glad it turned out the way it did. though I wouldnt have minded if Linden had healed TC brought him back to life and TC could have stayed in the land..Become the Highlord and lived centuries like Kevin did. every now and then give Foul a nice whack in the groin with the staff of law and white gold to keep him in his place or stunt his hopes of growth and a return. the earthpower would know where foul was nursing from so you could spike his earth teet with a little wild magic shock and law.