General Thoughts (Spoilers Abound!)

[Zarathustra]

[Edit: I just realized this is probably the wrong forum for my post. Mods feel free to move it to the "regular" Mordant forum.]

I wish I had been keeping track of all the chapter discussions while rereading. I'm almost done with the first book, and I don't think I could do the individual chapters justice. However, these are my general thoughts at this stage.

The setup is a little ridiculous. A woman who doesn't think she's real? And mirrors actually help? On the surface, it's pathetic as a character trait (rich, privileged girl who has no greater worry than a conceptual problem that wouldn't bother a philosophy 101 student) and unrealistic (does anyone actually worry about being unreal?). However, Donaldson works some magic in the first couples chapters that redeems this implausible setup. He takes it from a conceptual curiosity to a full-fledged existential crisis.

The problem isn't really that she doubts her existence. She isn't dealing with solipsism. Her actual situation is closer to the 2nd Chronicles dilemma facing Covenant and Linden: how to make their lives meaningful, rather than figuring out if the Land exists. Her impression that she doesn't exist comes from her own passivity and her inability to find meaning in her life. The horns she hears in her dream are a symbol of her capacity to discover value in the world . . . if only she would look at the world in the right way. The world doesn't change when she "hears" echoes of these horns, it is only her perception of the world which changes (becoming more real, more valuable). It's like the difference between seeing natural Beauty with Healthsense, and mere "scenery." What changes is the perceiver.

This is a classic existential problem: feeling insignificant, alienated, worthless, and pointless. And the solution is taking responsibility for your life, acting, deciding, valuing.

The twist that makes her personal dilemma dramatic--something that can carry a story--is the fact that her existence and worth is actually debated by the characters she meets. So her internal dilemma is mirrored (heh) in her situation once she is translated to Mordant: Joyse and Geradan think she was real prior to translation, while Eremis (and Gilbur?) think she was not. Thus, how the characters treat her follows directly from the issue of her reality. Suddenly, the question is no longer academic. Donaldson is the master of turning theoretical issues into plot issues--which makes them plausible and worthy of a story. At this point, I'm hooked.

He continues with this dramatic device in a convincing manner. Eremis treats her as a plaything to possess, while Geradan treats her with respect. This tension dominates the plot twists for most of the first book (before it diverges into "political" intrigue and siege).

And the issue of Joyse is fascinating. The conversation he has with Terisa, where she discovers that he knows what he is doing, was amazing. Donaldson convincingly juggles the issue of whether people should trust Joyse, or whether they should betray him. He gives us just enough from either side of that issue to leave us in doubt, to make either side seem plausible. While the evidence that Joyse is destroying his kingdom seems overwhelming, Geradan's support and the the hopboard hints are enough to keep you hopeful that Joyse has a plan. Just like Havelock's brief spells of lucidity, we have enough hints that there is a method to Joyse's madness. I forgot the exact quote, but Joyse says something about "letting your opponent win enough battles so that he doesn't realize he's losing the war."

The characters surrounding Terisa are fascinating--but Terisa herself is maddening. I like that she breaks out of her passivity, but I really dislike her for wanting Eremis and doubting the King. I know those are important plot points, but I still dislike her for doing it. For some reason, it annoys me more than Covenant raping Lena. I know that sounds horrible, but that's my reaction as a reader. Sometimes, like Lebbick, I want to slap her.

And then by the time the story gets to Nyle's plot and the impending siege, it doesn't really feel like a Donaldson story anymore. It's as if the plot becomes too complex to allow for the character-closeness he usually achieves. Too many events and plots are happening to retain that immediacy to Terisa's personal plight. Events no longer seem character driven, but merely plot driven. Things happen merely for dramatic effect, rather than because of Terisa's personal plight.

For instance, when Elga asks Terisa what is Orison's most obvious vulnerability, she has no problem saying, "the water supply." But then when they are racking their brains trying to figure out how the siege won't take long, no one in the entire castle thinks about their water supply? Really? That's siege 101! And Terisa already demonstrated that she can easily pinpoint that vulnerability. Examples like this--which are created for no other reason than implausible tension--are frustrating. It's nice that Terisa *finally* comes around to this conclusion. But Lebbick should have realized it from the beginning.

That's where I'm at now. Almost done with book one. It's been over 20 years since I read this, but I remember enjoying book 2 even more. I'll keep you all posted!

[wayfriend]

The twist that makes her personal dilemma dramatic--something that can carry a story--is the fact that her existence and worth is actually debated by the characters she meets. So her internal dilemma is mirrored (heh) in her situation once she is translated to Mordant: Joyse and Geradan think she was real prior to translation, while Eremis (and Gilbur?) think she was not.

I could not help contrasting this with the Chronicles, where the main character knows he is real, but thinks everything else isn't. It seems to be an inversion of a theme. When I first read Mordant, I had thought that this work and the Chronicles were the author's only works; it followed that I initially believed the author was in something of a rut.

The twist that makes her personal dilemma dramatic--something that can carry a story--is the fact that her existence and worth is actually debated by the characters she meets.

That definitely makes for a compelling story IMO.

The characters surrounding Terisa are fascinating

Yes. I always consider Mordant first and foremost a book with great characters. Everything else derives from that.

I like that she breaks out of her passivity, but I really dislike her for wanting Eremis and doubting the King.

Well, all three characters have to be painted rather well, to the degree that you care what they do, if these things can bring about strong feelings, right?

And then by the time the story gets to Nyle's plot and the impending siege, it doesn't really feel like a Donaldson story anymore. It's as if the plot becomes too complex to allow for the character-closeness he usually achieves. Too many events and plots are happening to retain that immediacy to Terisa's personal plight. Events no longer seem character driven, but merely plot driven. Things happen merely for dramatic effect, rather than because of Terisa's personal plight.

Aren't Teresa's actions surrounding Nyle and the siege necessary for Teresa to begin taking responsibility, acting, deciding, and valuing? They matter because it is the groundwork that enable's Teresa's personal growth.

For instance, when Elga asks Terisa what is Orison's most obvious vulnerability, she has no problem saying, "the water supply." But then when they are racking their brains trying to figure out how the siege won't take long, no one in the entire castle thinks about their water supply? Really? That's siege 101! And Terisa already demonstrated that she can easily pinpoint that vulnerability. Examples like this--which are created for no other reason than implausible tension--are frustrating. It's nice that Terisa *finally* comes around to this conclusion. But Lebbick should have realized it from the beginning.

Now, I've always attributed Teresa's handy knowledge here as an artifact of life in our world. The kind of pseudo-knowledge people have from watching too many action movies and such. Sort of like how we all "know" that you can kill a really big shark with an oxygen tank and a rifle, or that you can destroy a planet-sized space station by firing a few torpedoes down the exhaust shaft.

But what's interesting is that it doesn't really matter if this is the castle's biggest weakness or not. In fact, I never really imagined that it was. It only matters that Teresa convinces Elega that it is. And maybe the reason it never occurs to Lebbick is that it is actually a rather lame idea. It may be that the poisoned water would have done nothing serious at all.

[Zarathustra]

WF, excellent point about turning the reality issue from the Chronicles on its head. I had a nagging feeling that there was a point to be made along those lines, but I couldn't pinpoint it.

Aren't Teresa's actions surrounding Nyle and the siege necessary for Teresa to begin taking responsibility, acting, deciding, and valuing? They matter because it is the groundwork that enable's Teresa's personal growth.

There are instances where this is true, but not during the Nyle subplot. For that, she's merely along for the ride. She decides nothing, and takes no action--except killing the furry monster, which seems like it should be significant because it's the opposite of her initial dream, but Donaldson doesn't make that point explicit; it has no payoff. She is just a by-stander and witness during most of those scenes.

Her "handy" knowledge that the water supply is Orison's most obvious vulnerability didn't bother me nearly as much as her inability to recall this fact when it was needed . . . until the last minute when Elega was coincidentally doing the deed (I think it was Elega--I haven't got to the actual confrontation yet).

I don't think it was a lame idea. Sieges are usually successful in as much as the attackers can wait out the besieged--which literally comes down to food and water. Otherwise, it's an attack, not a siege.

I forgot to mention: "lugubrious" is MN's "puissiant." Man, he overuses that word!

[Mysteweave]

The setup is a little ridiculous. A woman who doesn't think she's real? And mirrors actually help? On the surface, it's pathetic as a character trait (rich, privileged girl who has no greater worry than a conceptual problem that wouldn't bother a philosophy 101 student) and unrealistic (does anyone actually worry about being unreal?). However, Donaldson works some magic in the first couples chapters that redeems this implausible setup. He takes it from a conceptual curiosity to a full-fledged existential crisis.

Personally, I think Terisa's character (as well as TC's and Linden's) deals with anxiety/panic attacks.
SRD's description (if I'm remembering correctly) reminds me of how I feel when I'm having panic attacks. No, not the fading or feeling like I don't exist, but there's something there that really reminds me of that. It's the same with Linden's "black moods".

I've often wondered whether SRD suffers with anxiety because of this.

[Zarathustra]

I have to say that my criticisms in the first post were rendered moot points by the time I finished the first book. The Nyle sub-plot is vital. Lebbick is going crazy (perhaps that explains why he couldn't reason out the water thing). And the story has once again become extremely character-driven.

It wasn't until I finished the first and started the second that I started loving these books as much as I did the first time around. There does seem to be a pacing problem for about 50-75 pages near the end. But once Eremis comes for Terisa in the night, it's all downhill from there--and I mean that like a roller coaster, not "getting worse." (We need to seriously rethink that cliche . . . downhill rocks. )

The fact that Donaldson purposely combines the scenes with the highest drama (e.g. Gilbur chasing Terisa with the knife, Terisa escaping and learning her talent) with the basic existential dilemma (her sense of "fading") makes this Classic Donaldson. The essence of character-driven drama, and the deepest levels of "character": what it means to be human.

Another Classic Donaldson example is the scene where T and G finally consummate their love. Again, it begins and ends with the debate about whether or not she was real. And this isn't a conceptual debate, but an intensely emotional subject which has immediate bearing on their personal relationship and the plot itself. And that's how Donaldson gets her in bed?!? Wonder. Genius. This is why I read Donaldson.

In terms of narrative mechanics, I love how we learn that Eremis is the bad guy. First, we're given loads of hints, many of which are intuitive and emotional. Then we're given the situations from which Terisa later derives the truth through logic (situations with enough ambiguity--like Eremis fighting off Gart--to delay our own reasoning). Then we're given the showdown between Geraden and Eremis where the entire narrative tension comes down to this particular question ("who is the bad guy?"). By this time, Terisa has sided with Geraden definitively. But there is enough doubt that we could imagine Donaldson is misleading us . . . there is subterfuge somewhere, but we still can't pinpoint it.

And then Nyle's tragic turn. And Terisa in prison. It's no coincidence that this is the turning point between the two books. This culminates with Joyse's plan, Eremis's betrayal, Geraden discovering his talent, Lebbick finally getting his chance to lock up Terisa, Terisa learning the truth from Eremis, and Terisa learning her own talent. We as readers learn from Eremis's own lips that he is the traitor. And Quillion overhears it, finally providing the proof Joyse has been seeking with his plan (to root out the Bad Guy). And right afterwards, we hear the full explication of Joyse's plan. This culmination of multiple revelations defines the transition between the two volumes. And this is handled in some of the most powerful scenes thus far.

I am so glad I decided to reread these 20 years later.

[danlo]

Good stuff guys! I'll get into the conversation soon enough and will fix the index and format so that it matches Dissecting soon...tidy up the old place, as it were-good to see some action here!