Lord Foul and the IllEarth Stone

[shadowbinding shoe]

At the end of LFB Drool Rockworm dies with the IllEarth stone in his hands. How did Lord Foul get it to Foul's Creche from there?

Teleportation is a tempting option but why haven't we seen any evidence for it anywhere else in the books? Besides he seems immaterial and carrying a solid object a distance seems an impossibility to me.

So did he have some trusty minions scoop the stone for him and rush with it to Foul's Creche? He would need someone he could trust, ie not the ravers. And he'll need to dodge others forces such as the Lords (an easy thing), the Cavewights and the Urviles.

So as I see it he has creatures he crafted at Foul's Creche waiting for the right moment and once they take it he joins them and uses his powers to hide them from everyone else until it's safe.

Thoughts?

[dlbpharmd]

I'm going with "trusty minions."

[Krazy Kat]

The map of the Land could be misleading. What if the Illearth Stone stayed where it was and Lord Foul moved into Kiril Threndor? He had taken up residence there in the second chronicles.

I've always believed the stone corrupted the senses causing reality to become confused with fantasy.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one.
Foul ordered the Cavewights to uncover the Stone and bring it to him.
Drool was a Cavewight, having some being under Fouls control bring it to him is very plausible.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

The creature who guarded Foul's Creche, with the extra arms and head? The one that Foamfollower killed but he took advantage of his loincloth?

His brother Billy Bob brought the stone to Foul.

Or to put it another way, Foul had ways of making servants. The creche is said to have armories and staging halls for hosts upon hosts.

Of what? Dudes to do his bidding.

[dlbpharmd]

The map of the Land could be misleading. What if the Illearth Stone stayed where it was and Lord Foul moved into Kiril Threndor?

We know this can't be true.

[wayfriend]

I'm gonna say 'trusty minions', specifically ur-viles. Only lore-wise creatures could approach the stone without doing a Drool and going all megalomaniacal.

I think Foul could absolutely trust the Ravers with the Illearth Stone, tho. They've never shown the slightest impulse to do anything except follow Foul, and I don't think they ever will.

[dlbpharmd]

I'm gonna say 'trusty minions', specifically ur-viles. Only lore-wise creatures could approach the stone without doing a Drool and going all megalomaniacal.

I think Foul could absolutely trust the Ravers with the Illearth Stone, tho. They've never shown the slightest impulse to do anything except follow Foul, and I don't think they ever will.

There was mention once (in TPTP?) that Foul could not trust the Ravers with the white gold.

[Savor Dam]

Yes, in the chapter Colossus of TPTP, the Raver-possessed Triok said:

"Elena Foul-wife" -- he uttered the name with horror -- "now holds the white gold. She is more the master's servant than any Raver. In the hands of turiya or moksha, that power would breed rebellion. With wild magic, any Raver would throw down the master if he could, and take a new seat in the thronehall of Ridjeck Thome. But Elena will not rebel. She will not use the wild magic to free herself. She has been commanded from the dead, and her service is pure!"

[thewormoftheworld'send]

At the end of LFB Drool Rockworm dies with the IllEarth stone in his hands. How did Lord Foul get it to Foul's Creche from there?

It's only make-believe fantasy. He got it there any way he wanted to.

[wayfriend]

Yes, I remember that line. The ring and the Illearth Stone are not the same, tho, are they. You can't shatter the Arch with the Stone.

As for that line: what Trick/Raver says may not be the truth.

Spoiler

Of course, in the Final Chronicles, we can see that Ravers can be trusted with even white gold.

And also:

As I see it, Lord Foul has long since subsumed the individual identities of the Ravers. They are no longer distinct "characters" with their own agendas: they are "minions" pure and simple. So they don't ask questions like, Gee, what happens to *me* if you win? Long ago, of course, LF may have made any number of "promises" (e.g. I'll take you with me when I escape Time) to seduce the Ravers. If so, those promises ceased to have any meaning (or even any necessity) centuries before Our Story begins.

(10/08/2007)

A more general question about the Ravers and their relationship to Lord Foul. It's clear that LF holds an underlying contempt for his servants/chattel/dupes (as evidenced by his wholesale expending of their lives in pursuit of his strategies), and it seems logical to conclude that this contempt extends to the Ravers. Have the Ravers worked this out for themselves? If so, would they be capable of deciding, on the basis of rational self-interest, to disobey LF's orders if following them placed them in a situation where they ran the risk of rending or some other threat to their existence?

• ... One of the attractions--and potential weaknesses--of fantasy is that it allows the storyteller to write about "pure" characters, characters without the usual mix of conflicting thoughts and emotions. Archetypal characters. The Ranyhyn, for example; or the Sandgorgons; or the Bloodguard and Saltheart Foamfollower early in the first trilogy. Well, I've always thought of the Ravers as "pure" minions: thinking beings so completely subsumed by Lord Foul that they no longer have any independent reality.
  
  And while we're on the subject: what have the Ravers *ever* done that could be justified by "rational self-interest"?
  
  (09/06/2008)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Yes, I remember that line. The ring and the Illearth Stone are not the same, tho, are they. You can't shatter the Arch with the Stone.

Apparently not, although it seems to be from outside the Arch.

[dlbpharmd]

Yes, I remember that line. The ring and the Illearth Stone are not the same, tho, are they. You can't shatter the Arch with the Stone.

Apparently not, although it seems to be from outside the Arch.

It does?

WF, I see now the distinction you're making about the Ravers, and I agree.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Yes, I remember that line. The ring and the Illearth Stone are not the same, tho, are they. You can't shatter the Arch with the Stone.

As for that line: what Trick/Raver says may not be the truth.

Aren't similar sentiments expressed by one of the ravers when he wines and dines Covenant near Morrinmoss?

Spoiler

Of course, in the Final Chronicles, we can see that Ravers can be trusted with even white gold.

Spoiler

Well, it doesn't really have much control over it because Joan is mad. All he can do is goad her into making more random Caesures. That doesn't risk LF or put the raver in a position of power over him.

And also:

As I see it, Lord Foul has long since subsumed the individual identities of the Ravers. They are no longer distinct "characters" with their own agendas: they are "minions" pure and simple. So they don't ask questions like, Gee, what happens to *me* if you win? Long ago, of course, LF may have made any number of "promises" (e.g. I'll take you with me when I escape Time) to seduce the Ravers. If so, those promises ceased to have any meaning (or even any necessity) centuries before Our Story begins.

(10/08/2007)

A more general question about the Ravers and their relationship to Lord Foul. It's clear that LF holds an underlying contempt for his servants/chattel/dupes (as evidenced by his wholesale expending of their lives in pursuit of his strategies), and it seems logical to conclude that this contempt extends to the Ravers. Have the Ravers worked this out for themselves? If so, would they be capable of deciding, on the basis of rational self-interest, to disobey LF's orders if following them placed them in a situation where they ran the risk of rending or some other threat to their existence?

• ... One of the attractions--and potential weaknesses--of fantasy is that it allows the storyteller to write about "pure" characters, characters without the usual mix of conflicting thoughts and emotions. Archetypal characters. The Ranyhyn, for example; or the Sandgorgons; or the Bloodguard and Saltheart Foamfollower early in the first trilogy. Well, I've always thought of the Ravers as "pure" minions: thinking beings so completely subsumed by Lord Foul that they no longer have any independent reality.
  
  And while we're on the subject: what have the Ravers *ever* done that could be justified by "rational self-interest"?
  
  (09/06/2008)

During the first chronicles they talk about promises to be taken along with LF when he escapes this world and have the status of creators (limitless power). In the second chronicles Linden gives us a glimpse into their mind when one of them possesses her. They're not mindless machines blindly following orders. They have a nature, thoughts, memories. And a defining fear that is different than their master's. (the ravers fear death. Foul fears life) Maybe since then they forgot about it. Who knows. It's hard to think what they'll want to do if they escape the world they live in. They have been dedicated until now to the rape and annihilation of beauty and life in the Land-world. Maybe if they're freed they'll try to create worlds of suffering and outrage. LF seemed to want to create perfect worlds of symmetry and austere beauty where life and change do not exist.

Spoiler

I have a suspicion that they DO have an independent agenda in the last chronicles. The mad raving giant is their tool. (His ability to escape his iron chains, his raver-like hatred, his magical sandgorgon slaying sword all point to this) Their purpose is to restore their rent brother into being and destroy all the surviving perpetrators of this deed (Linden and the altered sandgorgons, not to mention the giant himself who is a descendant of members of the SC quest)

[Krazy Kat]

The map of the Land could be misleading. What if the Illearth Stone stayed where it was and Lord Foul moved into Kiril Threndor?

We know this can't be true.

Having just finished reading the first chronicles I can see how important the architecture and structure of Foul's Creche is to the story as a whole. I agree that this can't possible be true. High Lord Tolkien's post seems the most logical.

[Rocksister]

Forgive my ignorance, but I do believe the Ravers are trusted with the Stone in several instances, or at least "flakes" or pieces of it. Kinslaughterer used a portion of it to destroy everyone in Coercri. And the Giant who attacked Revelstone (I forget which one that was; sorry) had a piece, too. So I would guess the answer to the original question would be that one of the Ravers brought the Stone that Drool used to Foul. Foul might not have been corporeal, and he may have lost a great deal of his strength at the end of LFB, but he still existed and so did his sway over the Ravers. That's just my take on it. I wonder if the Stone was broken into pieces at the end of LFB or if Foul somehow found a way to split it up so his "minions" could use it at various places. I'm guessing it's the first one, because of the white gold.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Forgive my ignorance, but I do believe the Ravers are trusted with the Stone in several instances, or at least "flakes" or pieces of it. Kinslaughterer used a portion of it to destroy everyone in Coercri. And the Giant who attacked Revelstone (I forget which one that was; sorry) had a piece, too. So I would guess the answer to the original question would be that one of the Ravers brought the Stone that Drool used to Foul. Foul might not have been corporeal, and he may have lost a great deal of his strength at the end of LFB, but he still existed and so did his sway over the Ravers. That's just my take on it. I wonder if the Stone was broken into pieces at the end of LFB or if Foul somehow found a way to split it up so his "minions" could use it at various places. I'm guessing it's the first one, because of the white gold.

It's a question of relative power. When Lord Foul has the big chunk of the IllEarth stone in his hands no raver with a mere flake of it can challenge him. But if a raver had it all in his hands he would (presumably) be much more powerful than the weaponless Lord Foul.

My guess us that Lord Foul intentionally broke three flakes from the stone to give to each of his ravers. (the one who fought Hile Troy also had one. The Forestal destroyed it when the raver entered his forest) Having 3 similar sized chunks of the stone seems too goo to be chance. What do you mean 'because of the white gold'?

[Vraith]

Somewhat speculative, but I suspect LF's relationship with/control over the Stone is powerful, intimate, and precise, such that a Raver, even with the whole Stone wouldn't be able to overcome LF. I say this because, unless I'm badly misinterpreting something, LF is responsible for the Stone being in the world at all, perhaps even for its creation [it's possible, but seems odd, that it was floating around outside creation with the Creator and LF and LF just pushed it to earth]. He certainly is a master of the lore of it...enabling him, for instance, to chip off pieces for the Giant-Ravers, and use its power directly battling for white gold.

[wayfriend]

I don't think the Illearth Stone is from outside of the Arch. I think Lord Foul created it and buried it as part of the Earth's creation.

For, behold! Buried deep in the Earth through no will or forming of his were banes of destruction

Perhaps he altered what the Creator was achieving, and caused these banes to be in the end result. Or perhaps he contributed to the creation process himself, side by side with the Creator. But either way, the Illearth Stone was created when the Earth was created, as opposed to being found somewhere else.

Surely Foul could weild the Stone better than anyone else. He's responsible for it even existing. And he's the greatest being living in the Earth.

Hyrim was sure that Foul broke those pieces off himself.

"That is only a fragment of the Stone! The Illearth Stone itself - is much larger! But in our worst dreams we did not guess that the Despiser would dare cut pieces of the Stone for his servants. His mastery of it must - must be very great."

So it all fits together - Foul's mastery is so much greater than anyone else's that he can contemplate splitting fragments off.

I imagine anyone else making the attempt would have become a patch of glowing lime green smudge.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think the Illearth Stone is from outside of the Arch. I think Lord Foul created it and buried it as part of the Earth's creation.

For, behold! Buried deep in the Earth through no will or forming of his were banes of destruction

This point is ambiguous to me. The text also states that LF placed or buried them there. Textually, there really isn't much more to go on.