SRD's two worlds

[lorin]

I was listening to Scott Bricks recording of a brief discussion with SRD about the writing of the trilogies. It was not the greatest interview but one thing really struck home for me. Donaldson was discussing how vital it was to his story that the 'unreal' be so much better, so much more vital than the 'real' world for Covenant.

I have often wondered why my love of these books is so extreme. And today it became clearer to me. It really comes, at least in part, from my own desire to be in the unreal world. That the world I am in lacks so much of what I value, that I cherish.

did anyone ever watch the movie "somewhere in time" where he 'thinks' his way back to another time, another place, repeating over and over until he arrives back in time? Maybe I could 'read' my way into another place, another time, another world.

Ok, I'm not quite as bazaar as I sound ....just having a difficult day with reality. .........It bites.

[Savor Dam]

Sorry that it's been a difficult day, Lorin. Some days are surely like that...

Not to be too glib, but seeing your listed location as being in "joysee" reminded me of the saying among the people of the Land that "Joy is in the ears that hear." Perhaps it is also in the eyes that see and there may be a way to see more joy in "joysee"...

Or perhaps not. Isn't it great that literature can be such a great escape?

May tomorrow be better for you!

[Orlion]

On an almost unrelated note, "Somewhere In Time" was also a Richard Matheson novel, haven't read or seen the movie, but soon I shall

Back on topic, maybe that's why Foul is such a bastard, he kinda makes the Land more like the "real" world...

[iQuestor]

I was listening to Scott Bricks recording of a brief discussion with SRD about the writing of the trilogies. It was not the greatest interview but one thing really struck home for me. Donaldson was discussing how vital it was to his story that the 'unreal' be so much better, so much more vital than the 'real' world for Covenant.

I have often wondered why my love of these books is so extreme. And today it became clearer to me. It really comes, at least in part, from my own desire to be in the unreal world. That the world I am in lacks so much of what I value, that I cherish.

did anyone ever watch the movie "somewhere in time" where he 'thinks' his way back to another time, another place, repeating over and over until he arrives back in time? Maybe I could 'read' my way into another place, another time, another world.

Ok, I'm not quite as bazar as I sound ....just having a difficult day with reality. .........It bites.

I think its called 'escapism'. Its why I have always loved 'other world' books where the protagonist 'escapes' to another world. Although there are always problems there, it always seems better than RL.

[Percipience]

The hyper realism of the land makes us pause in wonderment. It's all so incredible. But then if you take a step back and look around you. Realize that our world is equally wondrous. Sure in the Land the Sunbane can make a tree grow in a day, but think in our own world. Consider your backyard tree. How does a single seed turn into that incredible tree? Sure we can study the biology of it, but that biology is so incredibly complex, and the results can be soo beautiful. The world has problems like the Land has problems. But still it is a marvel to observe.

[wayfriend]

There's something sad about the Land, and the way that Donaldson writes about it.

In the First Chronicles, Donaldson created this world which was "the opposite of leprosy". It was beautiful. And we all fell in love with it for its beauty.

But it provided a mechanical element of the story. It was a place designed for someone with leprosy, some place where they would have to confront the adamancy of their principles.

But then the Land wasn't needed anymore. Not that Land. The leper didn't need that kind of test any more. So it became the Land of the Sunbane. The "Old Land" was gone.

The only thing left was a memory. A strong enough memory to motivate Covenant to rescue it. But the restored Land is almost a McGuffin - it's nothing but a motivation. It's not really part of the story in any other sense. It never comes back, not for the reader.

Sometimes I wish the "Old Land" could have been more important.

[Blackhawk]

I was listening to Scott Bricks recording of a brief discussion with SRD about the writing of the trilogies. It was not the greatest interview but one thing really struck home for me. Donaldson was discussing how vital it was to his story that the 'unreal' be so much better, so much more vital than the 'real' world for Covenant.

I have often wondered why my love of these books is so extreme. And today it became clearer to me. It really comes, at least in part, from my own desire to be in the unreal world. That the world I am in lacks so much of what I value, that I cherish.

did anyone ever watch the movie "somewhere in time" where he 'thinks' his way back to another time, another place, repeating over and over until he arrives back in time? Maybe I could 'read' my way into another place, another time, another world.






Ok, I'm not quite as bazaar as I sound ....just having a difficult day with reality. .........It bites.

I hear you... I loved the Land so much that I also went through a tough time when i was younger because I wanted so much to be in the Land...I guess that shows SRDs ability to inspire our longing of a place we have never truly seen.... along with his ability to write a story so good..(for me anyway) that it caused pain not being able to reach it... I know one thing...if as some believe we create our own heaven and hell then i know exactly where Im going to take my eternal vacation.

[Zarathustra]

The hyper realism of the land makes us pause in wonderment. It's all so incredible. But then if you take a step back and look around you. Realize that our world is equally wondrous. Sure in the Land the Sunbane can make a tree grow in a day, but think in our own world. Consider your backyard tree. How does a single seed turn into that incredible tree? Sure we can study the biology of it, but that biology is so incredibly complex, and the results can be soo beautiful. The world has problems like the Land has problems. But still it is a marvel to observe.

That's quite beautiful. I agree completely.

I can't sympathize with the desire to be in an unreal world. I don't understand it. To me the idea is just as seductive and destructive as it was to Covenant when he first entered the Land. And as others have pointed out, it turns out that the Land had just as much destruction, pain, despite, etc. as our world has. Maybe even more. I'd rather take my chance with Hitler than a Raver any day.

That the world I am in lacks so much of what I value, that I cherish.

This is heartbreaking to read. Maybe you're exaggerating. I can understand not getting what you want in life--there are many things (not just material things) that I do not yet have which I'm still trying to get. But they are all things which I can get in this world, if I try hard enough. And the things that really matter, like love and family and friends and Beauty, I already have. These are real parts of the world. All the things that make the Land special are already here. And I think that's a large part of Donaldson's point.

[danlo]

Don't worry lorin-life gets better once you leave New Jersey. (I'm, actually, not kidding)

[Rocksister]

This topic hits exactly why I read only fantasy, science fiction, and horror; they are an escape from what I can read in any newspaper, see on any TV news show, or go outside and see my neighbors do every single day. It broadens my horizons, opens my mind to what we can think of even if we can't create it. I personally think that what our mind brings into existence is every bit as marvelous as that seed turning into a tree. Even more so, because an elm tree can't come from a seed of any other kind, but a seed planted in your mind can grow into ANYTHING!!!!!! OK, now I am getting bizarre......

[Vraith]

This topic hits exactly why I read only fantasy, science fiction, and horror; they are an escape from what I can read in any newspaper, see on any TV news show, or go outside and see my neighbors do every single day. It broadens my horizons, opens my mind to what we can think of even if we can't create it. I personally think that what our mind brings into existence is every bit as marvelous as that seed turning into a tree. Even more so, because an elm tree can't come from a seed of any other kind, but a seed planted in your mind can grow into ANYTHING!!!!!! OK, now I am getting bizarre......

I agree with the almost every word, except to add that sometimes it's not so much escape as a reminder of [for lack of a better word] the glory of what people could be [even without supernatural powers], and to say it's not at all bizarre, it's GREAT!...the best long poem I've written [so far] came from a screw up in closed-captioning on tv [I don't recall what the line was supposed to be, but the captioning said "travelust at 7 miles per second, her blouse greened upwind"]
I'll bet every writer/painter/artist-of-any-kind here [maybe everywhere, and maybe at least briefly, non-artists, too] has had similar happen and been glad.

[lorin]

I agree with the almost every word, except to add that sometimes it's not so much escape as a reminder of [for lack of a better word] the glory of what people could be [even without supernatural powers]

but this could also break your heart.........

[deer of the dawn]

I agree with the almost every word, except to add that sometimes it's not so much escape as a reminder of [for lack of a better word] the glory of what people could be [even without supernatural powers]

but this could also break your heart.........

It's funny you should say this. I was in my usual morning prayer this AM and was thinking about how believing in and actively worshipping God allows a person's imagination to truly go wild. When I think about God, how He is so far beyond my comprehension, yet cloaked (in my mind) with all the glory and amazement of Creation-- stars, waterfalls, wildflowers, the irridescence of salamanders-- and at the beginning, we humans were created with similar glory and potential. But my (very Christian) faith promises me that someday I will once again be something glorious and amazing. Therefore I have hope-- not "gee, hope so" hope but a wonder- and expectation-filled hope. And not a hope this world can offer, because I know what I am without God, and it's not all that interesting.

But yes, it breaks your heart when you think how this world could have been (and originally was). But it will be something again, my friend.

And even as it is, this world is pretty darn amazing.

Still, imho our desire to 'escape' comes from just that intuition that we were made for something more, and we long for it.

[lorin]

I agree with the almost every word, except to add that sometimes it's not so much escape as a reminder of [for lack of a better word] the glory of what people could be [even without supernatural powers]

but this could also break your heart.........

It's funny you should say this. I was in my usual morning prayer this AM and was thinking about how believing in and actively worshipping God allows a person's imagination to truly go wild. When I think about God, how He is so far beyond my comprehension, yet cloaked (in my mind) with all the glory and amazement of Creation-- stars, waterfalls, wildflowers, the irridescence of salamanders-- and at the beginning, we humans were created with similar glory and potential. But my (very Christian) faith promises me that someday I will once again be something glorious and amazing. Therefore I have hope-- not "gee, hope so" hope but a wonder- and expectation-filled hope. And not a hope this world can offer, because I know what I am without God, and it's not all that interesting.

But yes, it breaks your heart when you think how this world could have been (and originally was). But it will be something again, my friend.

And even as it is, this world is pretty darn amazing.

Still, imho our desire to 'escape' comes from just that intuition that we were made for something more, and we long for it.

I give you a huge amount of credit. to do what you do (from what I've read) and to see what you've seen and still remain optimistic and amazed speaks tons about you.


Still, imho our desire to 'escape' comes from just that intuition that we were made for something more, and we long for it.

I guess your point is well taken. But it is the balance between the real and 'unreal' in our lives that is important. It appears, from what I have read in your posts, that you have found that balance. I have lost that balance.........I'm wobbly in the 'weal' world. I am such a DRAMA QUEEN! (hazard of being a social service slave)

[Rocksister]

Did anyone see the Star Trek movie? I'm a huge fan of the entire franchise. Just like the Chronicles, it made me think about things that will never be, could never be, and boy, would that be awesome or what! I guess it's not really an escape I'm craving, when I think about it. I don't really have anything I need or want to escape from. I suppose it's just a love of being awed, of feeling wonder, of being amazed. And knowing it's not real and never will be. Not an escape, no. A desire for wonder. Over and above what I see every single day already. God gave me this imagination, and He gave me a healthy dose of it. So I look for ways to feed it and keep it going. For some reason, Covenant didn't get that imagination; he didn't believe and didn't WANT to believe. I'd be like Mulder, I'd want to believe, even in the face of zero evidence. Yea, I'm pretty much a geek all-around......

[Demondime-a-dozen-spawn]

We're all lepers in our way, and the beauty of the Land is as seductive to us as it was to Thomas Covenant.

I wish I could experience our own world through the percipience granted Covenant and Linden in the Land of the Chronicles.

It's so easy to see the wrong in our world and overlook the health that is also there. I suppose the only "health sense" we can really cultivate is our attitude toward and perception of our world.

I know I'm far too negative far too often, but at one time I was much worse. I shudder to think of the kind of person I used to be. Godless and glad of it and every man for himself. All "ME" all the time.

I love the lyric of U2's Rejoice: "I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me."

[Zarathustra]

I agree with the almost every word, except to add that sometimes it's not so much escape as a reminder of [for lack of a better word] the glory of what people could be [even without supernatural powers], and to say it's not at all bizarre, it's GREAT!

I like this point. I agree that reading fantasy books isn't necessarily escapist. The story is real. The Chronicles are real. My mind and imagination are real. The interaction between SRD's story and my own emotions/aspirations/life-experience is real. What I love about these stories is what they show me about life, and what it means to be human. And part of what it means is pain, decay, and death. But that's true even in the Land.

In a recent interview, Donaldson said:

The themes and import of the stories change, but the means by which the stories are enabled always fall back on magic and monsters. That is how human beings have attempted to articulate their perception of discrepancy between what goes on in their own minds and what they experience in mundane reality, the sort of thing which eventually led to philosophies of the absurd and the mathematics of chaos theory are inherent to how human beings seem to perceive themselves as not quite fitting in the lives they lead and the world they live in, and in an attempt to define that way in which they don’t fit in they end up calling upon metaphors which imply the supernatural or the extremely terrifying. And magic and monsters fill those storytelling needs more directly than other kinds of writer’s tools."

I think what he's talking about here, and what Lorin has put her finger upon, is what is known as "alienation" in existential philosohpy. Due to many factors (including the "death" of god and the rise of reason after the Enlightenment, materialistic reduction and mechanization of our world due to Newtonian science, the dehumanization of a technological society, impersonalized structure of industrialization, etc.) we have become alienated from ourselves, each other, god, and the world. And then post-modernism came along and made us skeptical even of those rational, rigid truths people clung to during the Enlightenment after they gave up religion.

Existentialism has offered up several different strategies of dealing with alienation. But mostly they consist of facing it authentically. This is the complicated way of expressing my hesitancy in escaping into unreal worlds. "Be true" is the pithy way.

I hope that my comments didn't come off as judgemental. I don't think anyone is wrong in feeling this alienation. Quite the opposite--I think it's part of the human condition. But I do think there are dangers of failing to face it authentically. In fact, I think this is the entire point of what the Chronicles are about (hence my signature, my "tagline," my avatar, and my own novel I'm currently working on . . . in other words, this is a subject I've thought about a lot, and it's very important to me).

[lorin]

I've spent a lot of time rereading and rereading this thread. First of all, thank you, it helps to sort this all out.

It's so easy to see the wrong in our world and overlook the health that is also there. I suppose the only "health sense" we can really cultivate is our attitude toward and perception of our world.

In TPTP Covenant says something like you should try my world, you feel nothing, absolutely nothing. The hurtloam awakens his percipience (well, not in TPTP) and he finds the flood of feelings intolerable / overwhelming. How do I say this? These books have been my hurtloam and I find the percipience overwhelming.

When someone is given such a gift there has to be a place to focus that perception. I have spent 25 years among the emotionally dead. People that have no future, want no future, expect no future. So someone comes along and opens your percipience, allows you to see the world differently, and what you see around you is deadness. My attitude toward and perception of our world has become warped.

I do think there are dangers of failing to face it authentically.

I would really appreciate if you would expound on this.

[Zarathustra]

I do think there are dangers of failing to face it authentically.

I would really appreciate if you would expound on this.

Ok. But keep in mind that I'm only expressing my own opinions, and I'm not judging anyone.

The ways in which we turn reality into illusion are numerous and wide spread. They encompass nearly every social issue and every facet of our lives. And they all have their roots in how we allow unattractive truths to influence us to avert our attention from what's real.

Let me start with some easy, noncontroversial examples. Few people like to think about their mortality. For this reason, people sometimes put off going to the doctor because they don't want to hear bad news. They want to go about their lives and ignore warning signs. They distract themselves with their daily lives. Obviously, this can negatively affect your health.

Sometimes people don't want to face their emotional problems, so they will lose themselves in alcohol, drugs, overeating, etc. You can put any addiction into this category, whether it's a porn addiction, a video game "addiction," or whatever. There's a crucial difference between using pleasure as a diversion, and using it as a means to appreciate what's around you. (That's the distinction I was pointing out by quoting and agreeing with Vraith.)

People are often scared of change, so they support the status quo even when it's obviously false. The feminist movement struggles against this. So does the gay rights movement. You could say the same about any civil rights movement: some people don't want to acknowledge the reality of other humans' humanity, because it threatens them in some way. So they lie to themselves to uphold the fiction that some people are less human than they are.

And now we get to more controversial examples. Like religion. It is my personal opinion that religion is an escapist belief system that denigrates and devalues reality in favor of fictional worlds precisely because of people's unwillingness to accept the truth of a meaningless, finite, mortal life. It may not have started out like that, but that is what religion has become. I think originally, people understood that their mythologies were metaphors that helped them understand and appreciate life's mysteries (like the Chronicles). And they understood this because they were the ones who invented them. But given enough time and distance, people start to worship the metaphor rather than what the metaphor was supposed to convey, and they turn myth into literal "truth."

It would be like a culture 2000 years from now believing that the Chronicles were holy texts and that Covenant was a real savior, and then devoting their lives to this new religion and fighting wars over it, etc. We would correctly view those people as grossly misled. But they would be misled by precisely the same desire that many of us have felt upon reading this work: the desire to escape this world and treat a metaphor as a literal truth.

Thus, I think the desire to replace reality with illusion is dangerous. And it's dangerous in so many ways. But perhaps the most dangerous aspect about it is how innocent it can seem at first, that the line between inspiration and diversion is too subtle to notice. It is so inextricably tied to what it means to be human, that we often can't tell the difference between appreciated life and fleeing it.

[Vraith]

Nice, Malik [both the last and the one before]. There's something more, too, which I think is implied or alluded to in it, and connects back to:

I wish I could experience our own world through the percipience granted Covenant and Linden in the Land of the Chronicles.

People: We DO have "health sense," and not some mystical ancient Chinese secret, and perhaps not as potent as in the Chrons: we can tell if the water's good, if a storm is coming, if the tribe is uncertain, if our aunt is ill, if our brother's mate is pregnant.
Or at least we could.
But we didn't evolve for the sheer scale, unnaturalness, and disconnection of the world. Facing the world "authentically' is what we were born to do, but that world isn't around anymore. We're smart. We can learn to be authentic in the new situation, but the modern world inundates us with wants, needs, demands...things we must have, do, be, to be a real/good/important/successful person...almost none of which are actually necessary, almost all of which actually make one LESS authentic.
Simply put, so much happens to us, forces itself on our awareness, into our lives, that we are always focused on what's happening, never us...we say "I am, I see, I think, I want.." and don't even notice we have no real "I." Therefore no real lives.
I haven't gone as far afield as it seems...coming back now.
People don't face the things you mentioned, Malik, for at least 2 reasons...one you indicated [fear]...and they're afraid because no one teaches them how [to face mortality, for instance...look at the extremes we go to nowadays to shield children from death: not just their own, everyones]
The second reason is we've flipped the world over: what's out there, what's happening is IMPORTANT STUFF. The real stuff is just "personal issues." Which we are expected to keep to ourselves.
I could go on about this forever, and show how the nature of our social structure has corrupted individualism to such an extent that its main result is to prevent/destroy individuals. [and the paths to success/happiness make actual success/happiness all but impossible if you actually follow those paths] But I'll stop.