Hile Troy: The reader's POV

Post by **Orlion** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:07 am

So, I'm almost done with the re-reading of the IW, and I've come to the conclusion that Hile Troy is more about the reader's point of view more then anything else. Consider, we have all ready been introduced to the main conflict and what is (superficially, anyway) at stake, namely the Land. We are also familiar with Covenant's unwillingness to act, which, on the initial read, is really frustrating. During my first read of the Chronicles, my initial reaction of Covenant was one of ,"Come on, and do something!!!" I felt that if I were in Covenant's position, I would start kicking as much ass as I could in defense of the Land. Enter Hile Troy. Like us, he is "from the real world". Also, he appreciates the Land's beauty and will stop at nothing to defend it, which was my feelings during the initial read.

This, of course, has some interesting consequences. For me, it became clear that the struggle that was taking place was not as simple as fighting and defeating the enemy in epic battle. This realization floored me the first time I read it and has caused me to think more on TC's own reaction to the Land and its struggles.

This is just kinda a disjointed observation, and I was wondering if anyone else had similar thoughts?

Post by **SleeplessOne** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:55 am

Some good Hile Troy threads :

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... =hile+troy

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... =hile+troy

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... =hile+troy

this one's probably my favourite, and the thread title succinctly sums up my feelings on HT :

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... =hile+troy[/quote]

Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:28 pm

SleeplessOne wrote:this one's probably my favourite, and the thread title succinctly sums up my feelings on HT :

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... =hile+troy

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm Post subject: Hile Troy - What a Berk!!!

1969? WTF?!?

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:53 pm

Demondim-spawn wrote:1969? WTF?!?

Some posts got moved from another, older forum. I guess some dates did not get preserved.

Midnight, Jan 1, 1970 GMT is when time begins. At least, for software. (Time is usually stored as a 32-bit number representing the number of milliseconds since 12am Jan 1 1970 GMT. Now is 1,246,999,965,996, incidently.)

So a lot of posts got their timestamps set to zero during the move. Which yields that date. Give or take translation from GMT to your local time zone.

Post by **CovenantJr** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:12 pm

There was some kind of technical cock-up where new posts started being dated 1970. I don't remember what caused it, but Vain made it go away.

One of Michael Giantfriend's points in the Berk thread has seemed like an obvious oversight since I first read it (the topic, that is; it never occurred to me while reading the books): the wheel.

I agree, though, that Troy has the first-time reader's voice. Until halfway through TPTP, I wanted to slap Covenant and tell him to get his act together.

Post by **Kaos Arcanna** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:49 am

I always felt like Hile Troy got a raw deal.

There was really NO WAY he was going to win. The Plot simply wouldn't allow it.

Though I do wonder if a real Tactician Type-- which I don't think SRD would claim to be-- could have changed the outcome of Troy's efforts.

Post by **CovenantJr** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:00 am

I don't think any strategy, however brilliant, could have beaten Foul. He planned too meticulously, and had too much advantage.

Still, Troy made a right mess of it.

Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:10 am

CovenantJr wrote:I don't think any strategy, however brilliant, could have beaten Foul. He planned too meticulously, and had too much advantage.

Still, Troy made a right mess of it.

I agree with you. When the movie "300" came out, that is kind of the way I grew to envision Troys army vs the Despisers hoards. Bringing the army to Garroting deep while it is being decimated was definitely brave but futile.

Post by **Earthfriend** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:02 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the narration is told from Hile Troy's perspective in the IEW, doesn't it represent the first time the story is told through someone other than Covenant?

I think that was always the biggest problem i had with Troy. Suddenly all Covenant's assertions that the Land was not real - and my own questions and doubts about the Land's validity - were dissmissed in one fell swoop. It wasn't so much what Troy 'said', as much as the fact that it was him 'saying' it, not Covenant. (I had the same problem with Linden for the longest time, too. I simply didn't want to hear from anyone other than Covenant. Excepting Mhoram, of course *chuckle*).

As far as Troy's plan's for the defense of the Land, I agree with CovenantJr. Foul's army was simply too vast and strong for any plan to overcome. I seem to recall Troy himself admitting that, soon before commiting to his Garroting Deep gambit.

Post by **SleeplessOne** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:03 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the narration is told from Hile Troy's perspective in the IEW, doesn't it represent the first time the story is told through someone other than Covenant?

I think that was always the biggest problem i had with Troy. Suddenly all Covenant's assertions that the Land was not real - and my own questions and doubts about the Land's validity - were dissmissed in one fell swoop. It wasn't so much what Troy 'said', as much as the fact that it was him 'saying' it, not Covenant. (I had the same problem with Linden for the longest time, too. I simply didn't want to hear from anyone other than Covenant. Excepting Mhoram, of course *chuckle*).

As far as Troy's plan's for the defense of the Land, I agree with CovenantJr. Foul's army was simply too vast and strong for any plan to overcome. I seem to recall Troy himself admitting that, soon before commiting to his Garroting Deep gambit.

although I agree Troy's relative validation of the Land's reality disminishes some of the ambiguity of the story, I think the reader also starts to understand more fully Covenants stance of Unbelief in the face of overwhelming evidence during this part of the chronicles.
Troy's eagerness to accept the Land on face value, become seduced by the Lands gifts and consequently take an active role in defence of the Lands plight ultimately has huge consequences for him, as he finds himself responsible for the loss of lives and eventually the loss of his very being as he knew it.
Covenant's Unbelief starts to make sense; maybe the Land seems more 'real' to the reader, but now we can really see why Covenant is so reluctant to accept it. Foul exploits Troy's belief ruthlessly.

Post by **Earthfriend** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:11 pm

Yes, you make a good point O SleeplessOne. And having just re-read the offending section, i see that it is actually Mhoram who claims POV first after Covenant. Not by much though...and I don't think Troy's effort's were completely in vain. Through his actions Revelwood was saved, for a time, and a Giant-Raver slain.

Post by **SleeplessOne** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:57 pm

Yes, you make a good point O SleeplessOne. And having just re-read the offending section, i see that it is actually Mhoram who claims POV first after Covenant. Not by much though...and I don't think Troy's effort's were completely in vain. Through his actions Revelwood was saved, for a time, and a Giant-Raver slain.

yeah Mhoram's POV is shown in the chapter immeadiately preceding the 'Warmark' section of the book; I'm pretty sure the chapter is called Seer and Oracle (one of my favourites too)
- you're right, Troy's efforts were not completely in vain, but he paid a huge price, both in the blood of the people of the Land and with his own life - Covenant fears paying the cost of sacrificing his Unbelief for the Land; he feels he too will lose his life or at least the protective mechanisms which make his life sustainable.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch