Who picked TC?

[Barnetto]

OK, it's pretty obvious to everyone that I'm rereading the First Chronicles for the first time in rather a long time and it's prompting lots of questions thoughts that have to some extent have already been done to death on this forum, but hey I'm new to it and enjoying diving in....

So, another one - this time based on something I saw on the GI (and was picked up on the GI thread but no one really ran with it):

[quote="KonfusedofKettering]: Hi Stephen

Can I take you to task on your reply toBizzaster in last months GI. You said

"Come on. The Creator in this story is supposed to be a humane guy. We know this because he does things like offer Covenant a life in the Land--and because he doesn't *Appoint* anybody (he doesn't deprive people like Covenant, or the people of the Land, of their right to make their own choices). He didn't pick Covenant: Lord Foul did. If Covenant is enabled to live out his life in the Land (complete with white gold), LF would eventually have to come up with entirely new strategies, strategies in which the Creator might have no "say" at all--and I would be writing an utterly different story. The Creator certainly wouldn't go around *Appointing* new champions."

I quickly scanned through the First chronicles to refresh my memory. In his various encounters with the creator at the start of LFB we don't see anything that would ammount to an appointment but on Kevins watch LF tells Covenant that his enemy chose him to meet this Doom. Foul to my memory has never been a liar as far as his opponents are concerned, his dishonesty is more in what he omits than what he reveals and he has no power over his intended victims if he is not credible. So one tends to believe him on this point.

At the end of TPTP the creator admits that he chose Covenant but otherwise left hime free to choose his own path. Covenant certainly isn't appointed in the way the Elohim appoint there own where by the apoointed must meed the need of their appointment or pay the consequences so in failing to stop Vane's purpose Findail must pay teh price by becoming part of the new staff of law.

Does the creators chosing of Covenant count as inhumane. I don't think you can fully reconcile it as a humane act but the creator is in a deparate position here. He is in his own way making a similar kind of bargain as Covenant does several times in the story except he's trying to balance his reponsibilities to Covenant and to the people and creatures of his creation. Covenant's bargains are to avoid any responsability to the land.

May I take it taht this lapse was due to an urgent need to pack.


[SRD] Clearly, I don't see this as a "lapse" in the same way that you do. And if there *is* a lapse involved, it probably has more to do with my phrasing in the GI than in the point I was trying to make about the Creator's nature. I grant that using words like "choose" and "chose" to describe the actions of both the Creator and the Despiser encourages--or at least permits--confusion.... The Creator chooses Covenant in the sense that any affirmation represents a voluntary leap of faith. How is that not a humane act?

Is the intended point that LF reaches out and chooses (actively) a participant and at that point the Creator/Beggar can choose (passively) whether or not to allow that participant to be dragged into the Land?

I became extremely confused when I too read the reply to Bizzmaster which said that the Creator didn't pick Covenant.

[wayfriend]

That's one of the big questions, isn't it? Good topic to start.

In my own mind, I have concluded that they have both participated to some degree.

Perhaps Lord Foul nominated Covenant, and the Creator confirmed the nomination?

Or perhaps Lord Foul picked Covenant, but the Creator and Lord Foul are one, so the Creator also picked Covenant?

The issue, as Donaldson points out, is the word choose. He indicates that by that word he means affirm, or perhaps accept. This seems to be referring to the "choose" used by the Creator at the end of TPTP, and maybe not the "choose" he used himself when he said in the GI, Lord Foul chose Covenant.

However, looking at that section of TPTP, I see these words.

"You did not choose this task. You did not undertake it of your own free will. It was thrust upon you. Blame belongs to the chooser, and this choice was made by one who elected you without your knowledge or consent."

[...] Covenant heard sympathy, respect, even gratitude in the voice. But he was unconvinced. "I wasn't free. It wasn't my choice."

"Ah, but you were-free of my suasion, my power, my wish to make you my tool. Have I not said that the risk was great? Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land. You were free to damn Land and Earth and Time and all, if you chose. Only through such a risk could I hope to preserve the rectitude of my creation."

Almost ... almost ... It seems as if the Creator is saying that Covenant was chosen, but leaving out who it was who did the choosing.

Then he says, "I elected you for the Land". Which seems to indicate that the Creator was the one who chose.

Hmmm.

[Barnetto]

SRD elsewhere on the GI states that there was no overt collaboration on the choice of Covenant between LF and the Creator - they didn't have to agree on the person summoned to the Land.

But I do think the idea that the Creator had a kind of right of veto still makes sense. In particular, if you think about the order of events at the start of LFB: Covenant sees the Beggar - the Beggar provides the Fundamental Question of Ethics - the Beggars sign, "Beware" then flares with evil - Covenant then gives the Beggar his ring - after questioning Covenant, the Beggar gives the ring back saying "Be True".

Now, it seems to me arguable that SRD's intent here is that Covenant has already been marked by LF (the presence of the evil eyes, perhaps indicates this). But the important thing is the the Beggar voluntarily gives Covenant back his ring. He could have kept it in his begging bowl in which case when Covenant was actually physically summoned he would have appeared in the Land without white gold and would have been useless to LF. (He would still have been seen as a reincarnation of Berek, but that wouldn't help LF break the Arch of Time.) So, in giving back the ring to Covenant before he transported, the Beggar/Creator at least has chosen to allow him to enter the Land with potential...

[wayfriend]

I agree, it's complicated. I have been pondering more.

If you go back to the beginning, it was the Creator who created the Arch, and who chose wild magic as it's keystone, and who made white gold the instrument of wild magic in the Earth.

This had the effect that Lord Foul sought out someone who had white gold. That, and someone he thought he could manipulate into giving him that white gold. He thought that Covenant, the leper, outcast pariah, would fit his requirements, and so he chose him.

He was wrong. The Creator saw that. And, as you said, directly or indirectly approved of Foul's choice. Because, in essence, he knew or hoped that Foul had screwed up.

There would have been many people with white gold (common in our world) from Foul to choose from. Any other one probably would not have succeeded as Covenant had done. Hile Troy demonstrates that. "I'm a leper, Foul. I can stand anything." We see that in the end only a leper could have defeated Foul.

So how did Foul screw up so badly? The Creator must have somehow guided his choice.

The answer, then, might be as simple as this. Foul chose someone. But the choosing was rigged by the Creator to work in his favor.

[Orlion]

It's moments like these that I ignore all evidence of the Land maybe being real and decide that it's all in TC's head. That way, it's just a matter of internal hope and despair, and whereas despair will come to one unbidden, hope must be actively chosen, even if it's always there.

[peter]

Wow - Wayfarer certainly got it right that this is a big topic to start on! I also like his (Wayfarer's) idea that foul and the creator could be so closely linked as to be almost considered as one being; like light and dark, hot and cold, just opposit ends of the same spectrum.

Regarding the matter of TC's selection and the role of the creator and Foul in it - I have my doubts as to whether either were involved (at that time at least). It seems to me, given that TC ultimatly turns out to BE the Arch of time, that he is either a deity in the same mould as Foul and the Creator (surely his role as the Arch of Time is bigger and of longer standing than his manifestation as TC in 'our' world) and was not 'chosen' by either of them, or if they did have some part in his selection, it was at a much earlier point (before the human avatar Thomas Covenant was ever thought of) when the role of the Arch of Time was established.

The idea that some random guy (no matter how ultimatly successful) was just picked on to perform a role as important as the Arch of Time just does not (to me at least) stack up. If we accept that the Creators approaching TC at the start of LFB does indeed represent the beginning of his involvement in the affairs of the Land, then we have to ask the questions i) At what point does TC become the arch of time, ii) Who/what performed the role before TC's selection.

In my (humble) oppinion it must make more sense to see the TC that we are introduced to at the start of LFB as a secondary manifestation of an already existant force in a 'different dimension' ie of the Arch of Time of the Land

[Barnetto]

I agree, it's complicated. I have been pondering more.

If you go back to the beginning, it was the Creator who created the Arch, and who chose wild magic as it's keystone, and who made white gold the instrument of wild magic in the Earth.

This had the effect that Lord Foul sought out someone who had white gold. That, and someone he thought he could manipulate into giving him that white gold. He thought that Covenant, the leper, outcast pariah, would fit his requirements, and so he chose him.

He was wrong. The Creator saw that. And, as you said, directly or indirectly approved of Foul's choice. Because, in essence, he knew or hoped that Foul had screwed up.

There would have been many people with white gold (common in our world) from Foul to choose from. Any other one probably would not have succeeded as Covenant had done. Hile Troy demonstrates that. "I'm a leper, Foul. I can stand anything." We see that in the end only a leper could have defeated Foul.

So how did Foul screw up so badly? The Creator must have somehow guided his choice.

The answer, then, might be as simple as this. Foul chose someone. But the choosing was rigged by the Creator to work in his favor.

I don't think that it was a given from the outset that Foul had screwed up in his choice. I think one of the themes of the Chronicles is that true strength/power only exists where a person has freedom to act. There is no freedom to act where those actions are proscribed in advance (Bloodguard and the New Lords, for example). Covenant is different because he is an intensely emotional character (though in his real world he too has learned proscribed behaviour).

However, his emotions are quite capable of leading him to despicable acts (Lena obviously) and he is very close to despair for much of the time and that would have been perfect for LF.

The fact is that Covenant (fortunately perhaps) doesn't consciously make use of white gold throughout LFB and TIW. Not until he has reached a different state of mind through prolonged contact with the Land and the peoples does he use white gold and at a point when he is a very different character and in a very different state of mind than when he first was summoned.

The Creator saw the potential in Covenant to save the Land when he was willing to hand over his ring to the beggar, but I don't think that he can have "known" the outcome of allowing Covenant to enter the Land with white gold at that point. Covenant could have gone either way, to my mind. In fact, the possibility that Covenant could go either way was in some way essential to his ability to use white gold effectively against Foul.

[Ur Dead]

Foul picked TC. (because he wanted the White Gold)

He leads Drool to summon him. (because TC is so weak in strength and doesn't know anything about "Wild Magic".)

The Creator just happen to place a "thought" in TC's ear.
"Be True"
The Creator may have known more about TC's nature than Foul. (Who was imprsioned)

[spoonchicken]

Foul summoned the white gold, but the Creator picked the exact person that Fouls summons would result in. The text in both the 1st & 2nd Chrons supports this. Foul wanted the white gold, and arrogantly thought he'd be able to sucessfully manipulate whoever showed up. The Creator was able to somehow influence who exactly Fouls summons grabbed ahold of. The text at the end of TPTP supports this, as well a various conversations between TC & LA in the Second Chrons (the neccessity of freedom, and how & why LA specifically was chosen, hence her title "The Chosen").

[Vraith]

I think there are separate issues for the Creator and LF.
The Creator cannot directly choose, because that would be the same as putting his own hand through the Arch...a no-no, but has a "veto power" as someone said to stop someone already commited/lost to despite from being summoned. He can allow or disallow, but not pick.

LF has a different problem: He has to pick someone who could "go either way." If he doesn't, he ends up with either someone who will NEVER do what he wants, or someone who wants to take his place. Neither is likely to free him. [actually, a third option: it's possible that anyone already committed, to whichever side, could never understand the white-gold paradox at all, so not achieve power...people who are certain don't 'win by surrendering']

[drew]

I was always reminded of that George Burns movie, Oh God you Devil.
Where the Devil and God together had to agree on choosing one person; The Devil hoping he would damn mankind, God hoping he would save it.

[peter]

The issue here is that old chestnut 'Freewill'. Both Creator and Foul have to accept Covevant's freedom to act as he chooses or he becomes a mere 'tool' of one side or the other. As pointed out above either the Arch of Time would be destroyed or he would be unable to effect Foul's release, depending on whose tool he had become , so he HAS to be a free agent from both the Creators and Foul's point of view. For either to have a 'veto' so they can just keep refusing potential candidates until they get the one that exactly suits their own particular ends makes no sense at all. Thus you have a situation where both Foul and the Creator have to agree on a given candidate ie BOTH make the selection - or the selection has to be entierly random with both having a chance for a 'quick pep talk' to try to skew the odds in thier favour a bit. The third option which I go for is that Covenant is a demi-god already on a par with both Foul and the Creator and as such is beyond being chosen in the way that we are discussing. Covenant just is the one for the job and was always the one for the job so their was never any choosing to do by the other two. Very deterministic I know but why not.

[Barnetto]

The issue here is that old chestnut 'Freewill'. Both Creator and Foul have to accept Covevant's freedom to act as he chooses or he becomes a mere 'tool' of one side or the other. As pointed out above either the Arch of Time would be destroyed or he would be unable to effect Foul's release, depending on whose tool he had become , so he HAS to be a free agent from both the Creators and Foul's point of view. For either to have a 'veto' so they can just keep refusing potential candidates until they get the one that exactly suits their own particular ends makes no sense at all. Thus you have a situation where both Foul and the Creator have to agree on a given candidate ie BOTH make the selection - or the selection has to be entierly random with both having a chance for a 'quick pep talk' to try to skew the odds in thier favour a bit. The third option which I go for is that Covenant is a demi-god already on a par with both Foul and the Creator and as such is beyond being chosen in the way that we are discussing. Covenant just is the one for the job and was always the one for the job so their was never any choosing to do by the other two. Very deterministic I know but why not.

For what it's worth, the GI refutes the idea that there could have been any overt collaberation in the choice between LF and the Creator.

My take is that LF could reach out and find someone with White Gold and pull them in (and have some control over the actual individual chosen), but there was a period in which the Creator could then intervene to some degree. In particular, he (in the guise of the beggar) could have kept the ring when TC gave it to him such that TC would have been impotent (at least as far as LF's designs to break the arch were concerned) when he entered the Land. As such, both LF and the Creator had some say/involvement in TC entering the Land equipped for their (opposite) purposes.

[Zarathustra]

It's moments like these that I ignore all evidence of the Land maybe being real and decide that it's all in TC's head. That way, it's just a matter of internal hope and despair, and whereas despair will come to one unbidden, hope must be actively chosen, even if it's always there.

That's my tendency, too. Of course, it's an oversimplification, too, like assuming that the Land is literally real. You have to take both perspectives into account when trying to make sense of this.

I think that this task was "thrust" upon Covenant in the same way that life is thrust upon all of us (and life will always involve the struggle between Creation and Destruction--the story of the Chronicles). None of us have chosen to be here, but we are constantly choosing to either stay or leave. Staying can be a rigorous, defiant, spiteful choice like living by the Law of Leprosy--taking "revenge" upon life by rejecting death. Or it can be an acceptance of life by accepting mortality. TC's leprosy gave him wisdom because it made this choice explicit. Choosing to stay alive was a daily struggle for him, both in the sense of VSE and in the sense of not killing himself. Most people don't really think about their continuous choice to remain in this world. The things we do to perpetuate our survival (like eating) are more like hobbies or pasttimes. Also, we allow ourselves to forget that we can commit suicide at any minute. But for Covenant, his leprosy made the razor's edge of existence sharper than it is for most people. This is why he was poised to either save or damn the world (well, himself). This is why he was "chosen." He chose himself. Just like we all can, if we wake up to our lives. But this existence--and the choices it entails--was thrust upon him initially. The necessity of freedom was thrust upon him.

"If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice." [Rush, Freewill]

[wayfriend]

My take is that LF could reach out and find someone with White Gold and pull them in (and have some control over the actual individual chosen), but there was a period in which the Creator could then intervene to some degree.

That was my opinion as well (posted above). It's the best interpretation I can imagine that matches the facts. Although I think Donaldson does make fast and loose with the word "choose", as he does in all things.

We know that Foul instigated Covenant's initial summoning, although Drool did the actual staffwork. So, it's clear that Foul chose to summon or not summon Covenant. And he chose to summon, because he thought he could win that way.

That's a choice Foul made. But it was a choice to summon or not summon. SRD says Foul "picked" Covenant, though, and that's a different matter entirely.

So perhaps the Creator had a similar choice. Foul "picked" Covenant, but the Creator chose whether or not Foul could summon him. And then Foul chose whether or not he would summon him.

If this is so, I think the Creator saying "I elected you for the Land" can be interpreted to fit.