Let's get a few things out of the way...
- I make no apologies over my respect for Sylvester Stallone as a writer, director, and actor. Both Rocky and First Blood are easy shoo-ins for my all-time top 20 list. I think Oscar is a seriously undervalued comedy. The first 10 minutes of Cliffhanger are only rivaled by the first 10 minutes of 28 Weeks Later as the best opening scene of all time.
- I haven't seen either of these films from start-to-finish since I sat my butt in a theater and saw them on their respective opening nights.
- I hate boxing.
With all that said, I was stuck at home today with a busted rib (thank you Snowmageddon), and getting off the sofa just wasn't in the cards. What better time to look at a Christmas gift. Rocky: The Undisputed Collection gathers all 6 films plus bonus material on absolutely amazingly remastered Blu*Ray. No joke folks, these movies are from '82 and '85, and they look and sound absolutely amazing on Blu*Ray.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I really hadn't thought too much about the Rocky films for years. About 2 years ago, I caught the beginning of Rocky Balboa on cable, and thought it would be good for a laugh. Holy sh*t, was I wrong. It's an excellent film that deals with aging, and what it means to prove something to yourself. It's a little sappy and indulgent, but overall it's a fantastic film that made me curious to revisit the older ones.
On a cross-country plane trip, my wife and I re-watched Rocky. Again, I was shocked at what a compelling story it was, and what a great job Sly did as the lead.
But Rocky III and Rocky IV remained as the two "star vehicle" films for me. Empty vessels showcasing Sly's pecs. I really didn't feel I needed to see them again.
Until I was stuck on the sofa and tired of staring at my laptop.
Rocky III is a far better movie than I remembered. In fact, it's actually a good movie. Sure, it's a showcase for a bulked-up Stallone, and it's full of all the other goofy things you remember (Mr. T and Hulk Hogan), but it also is a stinging indictment of materialism and complacency.
Say what?
Oh yeah, Rocky lives in a big house, surrounded by material things, luxury, and wealth. He stays on top by fighting chumps. Then Clubber Lang kicks the everloving crap out of him. What happens? Apollo Creed takes Rocky under his wing, teaches him to rediscover "the eye of the tiger", by going back to basics. No more expensive training for the former champ, Rocky goes to L.A., to Apollo's old gym, and trains old-school.
Other than the most (unintentionally) homoerotic training montage ever assembled, it makes for a story very similar to the first film's. Rocky suffers loss (both in the ring and of his trainer), gets back to basics, and overcomes a superior foe.
I'l also say that the boxing footage is (for this hater of boxing) is downright inspired. As I've said before, Stallone knows how to direct, and the fight scenes with Clubber Lang are brilliantly choreographed and shot. Mr. T acquits himself well at expressing unbridled rage. His character is one-note, but he plays the hell out of it.
Rocky IV is a bit more problematic. For starters, it mines a lot of the same territory as the first 3 films, though instead of compressing 1 & 2 like 3 did (a loss, followed by training, followed by a win), it substitutes a loss by Apollo (who also loses his life), followed by training, followed by a win. But then there's the rather stinging indictment of the USA, as is brilliantly highlighted in the Apollo/Drago bout.
Say what?
Watching the James Brown lead-up to the fight, we're given a glimpse into how the rest of the world sees us; garish, loud, and ugly. It's surprisingly subversive in the context of what is (at heart) a propaganda film about American superiority over communism.
Rocky IV also has the mother of all training montages. It's actually broken up by an interlude with Adrian (which is snipped out of the link), but my God, it makes me want to go out and run in the snow.
The fight between Drago and Rocky is somewhat anticlimactic (since there's no doubt that Rocky is gonna win), and pole-vaults over the goofy line when hundreds of Soviets (including members of the Politburo) start chanting, "ROCKY!", but it's still pretty well done. Well, ok, the slow-motion punches are a bit over the top. And so is the, "If I can change, and yous can change.." speech.
Rocky IV is no Rocky III.
I'm actually curious now to watch Rocky V, a film that was almost universally panned.
Random thoughts on Rocky III & IV
Moderators: sgt.null, dANdeLION
Random thoughts on Rocky III & IV
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
I'm proud to say that Rocky is also in my Top 20 all-time. AFAIK, it was the first movie that I ever saw in a theater. My brother (13 years old than I am) took my 2 sisters and I to see it when we were visiting him in Ohio. I remember the theater was packed, and people were cheering at the end. I didn't know til years later that Rocky actually lost to Apollo. 
Rocky II is an excellent sequel. In my mind, III, IV and V don't exist. The story concludes with Rocky Balboa, and to me the finish couldn't be better. Rocky goes out on top, proving himself for the last time.
Rocky II is an excellent sequel. In my mind, III, IV and V don't exist. The story concludes with Rocky Balboa, and to me the finish couldn't be better. Rocky goes out on top, proving himself for the last time.
You know what? That's exactly where I was 12 hours ago. I'm genuinely surprised at how good Rocky III is.
And yeah, Rocky Balboa is simply a fantastic ending.
And yeah, Rocky Balboa is simply a fantastic ending.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
-
Worm of Despite
- Lord
- Posts: 9546
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:46 pm
- Location: Rome, GA
- Contact:
-
High Lord Tolkien
- Excommunicated Member of THOOLAH
- Posts: 7393
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:40 am
- Location: Cape Cod, Mass
- Been thanked: 3 times
- Contact:
I like them all except for 5.
5 was horrible.
Even the soundtrack to 4 was awesome.
5 was horrible.
Even the soundtrack to 4 was awesome.
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
-
finn
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:03 am
- Location: Maintaining an unsociable distance....
Damned good post Cail, you've really summed it up for me there and I think III is close to my favourite (barring the last one which is a truly understated class movie which as you say deals with a lot of issues we all get everyday as we get older).
The US/USSR thing in IV (IIRC) was just at the time that Gorbachev was making noises about reform and getting rid of Gromyko and other old school types, but was a year at least before Reagan's visit and showed perhaps a very astute reading of the political climate of the time by Stallone. Sly is a very smart cookie wrapped perhaps in a "hey I'm just a regular dumb guy" persona that allows him to get where he's going without interference from those who would see another persona as a threat. By the time people figured him out it was too late: he'd got there!
Another interesting thing for me was that IV saw the battle of training methods from old school to manufactured and mirrored a battle in the UK between the worlds two top mile/1500 metres runners, Sebastian Coe and Steve Ovett just a few years earlier. Ovett was the guy who ran over the south downs at 5.00am in the rain, Coe the guy in the gym with the bottle of water and pretty coloured straw. Now the truth of this may be different but the perception was there that one was using natural training methods and the other manufactured training.
At the same time we were also seeing an industrial revolution being led by computerised technologies replacing manual ones. Robotic manufacturing, computer compositing for printing, Thatcher, Reagan,etc were in a way, asking the same questions. Stallone's reading of the public has by and large been very accurate and in my view not as gratuitous as people have first assumed. He does deliver indictments in Rocky and in Rambo movies, sometimes clumsily but also at times in a more subtle manner: the tirade at the end of First Blood is laced with valid questions I'd guess any Vet would ask, and the character itself and the purposes for which it is used are as much criticisms as glorifications.
Both the Rocky and Rambo characters also stand for the average guy and say, there's more here than meets the eye, what you see is not all there is. The ordinary guy can't be fulfilled by fighting and Sly is a sort of avatar for this, as you say you are lifted and inspired to go run in the snow!
I don't really have a point to add here but just wanted to endorse your post.
The US/USSR thing in IV (IIRC) was just at the time that Gorbachev was making noises about reform and getting rid of Gromyko and other old school types, but was a year at least before Reagan's visit and showed perhaps a very astute reading of the political climate of the time by Stallone. Sly is a very smart cookie wrapped perhaps in a "hey I'm just a regular dumb guy" persona that allows him to get where he's going without interference from those who would see another persona as a threat. By the time people figured him out it was too late: he'd got there!
Another interesting thing for me was that IV saw the battle of training methods from old school to manufactured and mirrored a battle in the UK between the worlds two top mile/1500 metres runners, Sebastian Coe and Steve Ovett just a few years earlier. Ovett was the guy who ran over the south downs at 5.00am in the rain, Coe the guy in the gym with the bottle of water and pretty coloured straw. Now the truth of this may be different but the perception was there that one was using natural training methods and the other manufactured training.
At the same time we were also seeing an industrial revolution being led by computerised technologies replacing manual ones. Robotic manufacturing, computer compositing for printing, Thatcher, Reagan,etc were in a way, asking the same questions. Stallone's reading of the public has by and large been very accurate and in my view not as gratuitous as people have first assumed. He does deliver indictments in Rocky and in Rambo movies, sometimes clumsily but also at times in a more subtle manner: the tirade at the end of First Blood is laced with valid questions I'd guess any Vet would ask, and the character itself and the purposes for which it is used are as much criticisms as glorifications.
Both the Rocky and Rambo characters also stand for the average guy and say, there's more here than meets the eye, what you see is not all there is. The ordinary guy can't be fulfilled by fighting and Sly is a sort of avatar for this, as you say you are lifted and inspired to go run in the snow!
I don't really have a point to add here but just wanted to endorse your post.
"Winston, if you were my husband I'd give you poison" ................ "Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it!"
"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"
"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"
"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
"Terrorism is war by the poor, and war is terrorism by the rich"
"A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well."
"The opposite of pro-life isn't pro-death. Y'know?"
"What if the Hokey Cokey really is what its all about?"
-
Worm of Despite
- Lord
- Posts: 9546
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:46 pm
- Location: Rome, GA
- Contact:
Great posts, Cail and finn. That's more depth in Rocky IV than I thought was there. Well, my fault for not looking hard enough.
Rocky IV was a guilty pleasure for me. Very well-executed big and loud entertainment. Apollo Creed's death at the hands of Drago was, however, a pretty powerful scene. I totally hated Drago at that point, and was already relishing seeing him taken down by Rocky. This movie knew how to push people's buttons for maximum effect. Which I don't mind too much when it's done well.
But I don't have any of the Rocky movies. The only one I could see myself spending money on is the original, because I have to admit it is a great film. I don't admit it lightly - for a long time I simply could not be bothered to watch it. But Rocky has real depth, real emotions - I ended up caring about the people in that movie, they weren't just outlandish caricatures.
Rocky IV was a guilty pleasure for me. Very well-executed big and loud entertainment. Apollo Creed's death at the hands of Drago was, however, a pretty powerful scene. I totally hated Drago at that point, and was already relishing seeing him taken down by Rocky. This movie knew how to push people's buttons for maximum effect. Which I don't mind too much when it's done well.
But I don't have any of the Rocky movies. The only one I could see myself spending money on is the original, because I have to admit it is a great film. I don't admit it lightly - for a long time I simply could not be bothered to watch it. But Rocky has real depth, real emotions - I ended up caring about the people in that movie, they weren't just outlandish caricatures.
-
Mr. Broken
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:49 pm
- Location: The arm pit of hell, Titusville Pa.
To me Rocky stands out as the best of all.
Rocky V the worst of all.
The thing about Rocky IV that stood out to me, was that it was a blatant propaganda flick, perfectly reflecting Reagan era attitude, and foreign policy. It makes me wonder if Stallone had political ambitions at one time. When you consider the number of films in which he appeared as an anti-Soviet ass kicker.
Rocky V the worst of all.
The thing about Rocky IV that stood out to me, was that it was a blatant propaganda flick, perfectly reflecting Reagan era attitude, and foreign policy. It makes me wonder if Stallone had political ambitions at one time. When you consider the number of films in which he appeared as an anti-Soviet ass kicker.
Wide Eyed Stupid
This is the set I got. It goes on sale periodically.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
-
Mr. Broken
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:49 pm
- Location: The arm pit of hell, Titusville Pa.
Yup. Between the Rocky, Rambo, and Dirty Harry movies, I can kill an entire weekend.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
-
dANdeLION
- Lord
- Posts: 23836
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
- Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
- Contact:
I'm no fan of Stallone. Give me Dirty Harry, Die Hard, or the Jack Ryan films over Sly any day of the week.
And yes, I saw the first 3 Rockys and at least 2 Rambos.
And yes, I saw the first 3 Rockys and at least 2 Rambos.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
*
* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
* * This post carries Jay's seal of approval
Rocky is one of the all-time great American movies, without question. Not only does it function as the great boxing movie, it also works as the story of failure turned into pride. At its heart, though, I think it's basically a love story about two very awkward people, and it succeeds well at that.
I was never comfortable with the idea of the sequels - Rocky was supposed to be about a guy who was passing his prime, and never really had a shot at getting into the big league; so the sequels with him as the world's greatest boxer never felt true to the original for me.
That said, I've always like Rocky 3 the most of the sequels. It has some excellent direction in it, and probably the best montage sequence in any Rocky film. It has a few faults but, overal, I think it's a solid film.
Rocky IV has always repulsed me - visually, emotionally . . . even intellectually. I couldn't imagine myself ever giving it another try. I still haven't seen the latest film, and it hasn't been a pressing urge. Most people tend to say good things about it, though.
I was never comfortable with the idea of the sequels - Rocky was supposed to be about a guy who was passing his prime, and never really had a shot at getting into the big league; so the sequels with him as the world's greatest boxer never felt true to the original for me.
That said, I've always like Rocky 3 the most of the sequels. It has some excellent direction in it, and probably the best montage sequence in any Rocky film. It has a few faults but, overal, I think it's a solid film.
Rocky IV has always repulsed me - visually, emotionally . . . even intellectually. I couldn't imagine myself ever giving it another try. I still haven't seen the latest film, and it hasn't been a pressing urge. Most people tend to say good things about it, though.
"For the love of God, Montresor!"
"Yes," I said, "for the love of God!" - Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado.
"Yes," I said, "for the love of God!" - Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado.
-
dANdeLION
- Lord
- Posts: 23836
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
- Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
- Contact:
Correction. I saw Rocky IV, too. I was the best, but I kinda liked IV too. Given the choice between watching a Rocky movie or Rambo, I'd definitely choose Rocky. No need to watch Rambo, as I have both Hot Shots flicks on dvd.dANdeLION wrote:I saw the first 3 Rockys and at least 2 Rambos.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
*
* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
* * This post carries Jay's seal of approval
Well, if we're comparing Stallone to Eastwood, then no, I don't believe Sly is in the same league as Clint. And I prefer the Jack Ryan films, too.dANdeLION wrote:I'm no fan of Stallone. Give me Dirty Harry, Die Hard, or the Jack Ryan films over Sly any day of the week.
But Stallone has that first Rocky film, and no one can take that - and the Oscars it won - away from him.
Montresor wrote:At its heart, though, I think it's basically a love story about two very awkward people, and it succeeds well at that.
Yes, it was what surprised me about the film when I finally watched it - its emotional sensitivity. Far removed from the loud spectacle of the sequels. But I'll keep Cail's words in mind about there being a certain subversiveness to them beneath the heat and thunder.
That really does get lost, doesn't it? The first film really did deserve its Oscar.matrixman wrote:But Stallone has that first Rocky film, and no one can take that - and the Oscars it won - away from him.
Montresor wrote:At its heart, though, I think it's basically a love story about two very awkward people, and it succeeds well at that.
Yes, it was what surprised me about the film when I finally watched it - its emotional sensitivity. Far removed from the loud spectacle of the sequels.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Yes, Rocky was a deserving Oscar winner. Outside of its own artistic merits as a movie, Rocky stood for the underdog, which most people would root for. The Academy voters generally like underdogs, too (except when they don't, heh). In the case of Rocky, everyone must have come away happy.
(I looked up the other Best Picture nominees for 1976. Rocky sure beat out some heavyweight competition - I've seen All The President's Men and Taxi Driver, and thought both were seriously good films. Okay, All The President's Men did drag a bit, but I digress...)
(I looked up the other Best Picture nominees for 1976. Rocky sure beat out some heavyweight competition - I've seen All The President's Men and Taxi Driver, and thought both were seriously good films. Okay, All The President's Men did drag a bit, but I digress...)
-
Mr. Broken
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:49 pm
- Location: The arm pit of hell, Titusville Pa.