Inconsistency?

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

Moderators: dlbpharmd, High Lord Tolkien

Post Reply
ScrapOSamadhi
Stonedownor
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:11 am
Location: Waterloo, Canada

Inconsistency?

Post by ScrapOSamadhi »

I noticed at the bottom of page 8 of the first chapter of AATE the following text:
—hold it, Covenant thought. Holed them all. For a moment, the sight of Giantshipstugged at him, pulling him down. He saw the wooden vessels of the Unhomed sunk by turiya Kinslaughterer while the Giants waited for death in their homes. The suction as the shipsfoundered tried to drag Covenant with them. None of them were left at sea: they had returned to The Grieve to be fitted with Gildenlode keels and rudders so that they might be able to find theirway Home; end their long bereavement—
I thought giant sea ships were made of stone (ignoring the Gildenlode upgrades).

Another item:
If you do not claim the Staff of Law, it will be conveyed toRevelstone, where it may be preserved for the Land’s last defense.”
This doesn't sound like the Haurachi's attitude as I know it toward tools or items of lore as has been consistently presented to date.

[mod edit]
User avatar
iQuestor
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2520
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 12:20 am
Location: South of Disorder

Re: Inconsistency?

Post by iQuestor »

ScrapOSamadhi wrote:I noticed at the bottom of page 8 of the first chapter of AATE the following text:
Spoiler
—hold it, Covenant thought. Holed them all. For a moment, the sight of Giantshipstugged at him, pulling him down. He saw the wooden vessels of the Unhomed sunk by turiya Kinslaughterer while the Giants waited for death in their homes. The suction as the shipsfoundered tried to drag Covenant with them. None of them were left at sea: they had returned to The Grieve to be fitted with Gildenlode keels and rudders so that they might be able to find theirway Home; end their long bereavement—
I thought giant sea ships were made of stone (ignoring the Gildenlode upgrades).

Another item:
Spoiler
If you do not claim the Staff of Law, it will be conveyed toRevelstone, where it may be preserved for the Land’s last defense.”
This doesn't sound like the Haurachi's attitude as I know it toward tools or items of lore as has been consistently presented to date.

The ships of the first Chronicles were wooden, not stone. Even Saltheart's smaller vessel was wooden.

The Haruchai didnt use weapons or lore, but they were always bearing this or that away to revelstone , either for the Lords in the first chronicles, or for their own lordship in the last. Korik, Sill and Doar attempted to take the Illearth Fragment they took from Kinslaughterer to Revelstone, however that didnt work out so well. But this part isnt inconsistant with their past actions.
User avatar
Ur Dead
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:17 am

Post by Ur Dead »

I doubt the last statement would happen. Although the Haruchi said what they would do. SRD left a door opening. They would lose the staff to the Harrow.

But it's out of character for the Haruchai to take the staff for use later. They didn't believe in lore to achieve their goals. To take the staff to prevent others using it makes more sense.
What's this silver looking ring doing on my finger?
User avatar
Orlion
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 6666
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
Location: Getting there...
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by Orlion »

Ur Dead wrote:I doubt the last statement would happen. Although the Haruchi said what they would do. SRD left a door opening. They would lose the staff to the Harrow.

But it's out of character for the Haruchai to take the staff for use later. They didn't believe in lore to achieve their goals. To take the staff to prevent others using it makes more sense.
Which makes sense in light that their whole mastery of the Land depends on hiding Earthpower from its inhabitants. Not only does that prevent the inhabitants from hurting themselves, but insures that the Masters stay in power (in their benevolent position of brother's keeper, of course! ;) )
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
chaplainchris
Stonedownor
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:02 pm

Post by chaplainchris »

Orlion wrote:
Ur Dead wrote:I doubt the last statement would happen. Although the Haruchi said what they would do. SRD left a door opening. They would lose the staff to the Harrow.

But it's out of character for the Haruchai to take the staff for use later. They didn't believe in lore to achieve their goals. To take the staff to prevent others using it makes more sense.
Which makes sense in light that their whole mastery of the Land depends on hiding Earthpower from its inhabitants. Not only does that prevent the inhabitants from hurting themselves, but insures that the Masters stay in power (in their benevolent position of brother's keeper, of course! ;) )
Yes, the Masters want to prevent the Staff from being used by others. However, in TROTE, Stave (pre-joining Linden's side) articulates the POV several times that the *existence* of the Staff is helpful, helping to preserve the Law and make Earthpower safer. In fact, he tells us that the Haruchai decided to become the Masters in part because the Staff was lost, and no longer around to be a check and protection for Earthpower. (A point that's been dropped, apparently, as I would have expected Linden or Stave to remind the Masters of this, and that the conditions which led to their Mastery no longer apply, now that the Staff has been found.)

At any rate - the Masters value the existence of the Staff, so taking it to Revelstone a) keeps it safe, exerting a passive but beneficent influence; and b) keeps anyone else from (mis)using it.

So it seems very consistent with the Masters' attitude, to me.

I just can't believe how arrogant they've been, and that none of them care that Brinn's great victory cost Seadreamer's life. Or that Brinn had already been judged (by himself) as unworthy b/c of the Merewives, which should call into question their whole way of judging worth.

*sigh* All that perfect racial memory of eons, yet they haven't learned the lessons of history. Bannor seems to be the only Haruchai who really *learns* something about life, to me. (I used to think Cail had, too, but Esmer makes me doubt that.)
"The glory of God is a human being who is fully alive." - St. Irenaeus
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

chaplainchris wrote:
Orlion wrote:
Ur Dead wrote:I doubt the last statement would happen. Although the Haruchi said what they would do. SRD left a door opening. They would lose the staff to the Harrow.

But it's out of character for the Haruchai to take the staff for use later. They didn't believe in lore to achieve their goals. To take the staff to prevent others using it makes more sense.
Which makes sense in light that their whole mastery of the Land depends on hiding Earthpower from its inhabitants. Not only does that prevent the inhabitants from hurting themselves, but insures that the Masters stay in power (in their benevolent position of brother's keeper, of course! ;) )
Yes, the Masters want to prevent the Staff from being used by others. However, in TROTE, Stave (pre-joining Linden's side) articulates the POV several times that the *existence* of the Staff is helpful, helping to preserve the Law and make Earthpower safer. In fact, he tells us that the Haruchai decided to become the Masters in part because the Staff was lost, and no longer around to be a check and protection for Earthpower. (A point that's been dropped, apparently, as I would have expected Linden or Stave to remind the Masters of this, and that the conditions which led to their Mastery no longer apply, now that the Staff has been found.)

At any rate - the Masters value the existence of the Staff, so taking it to Revelstone a) keeps it safe, exerting a passive but beneficent influence; and b) keeps anyone else from (mis)using it.

So it seems very consistent with the Masters' attitude, to me.

I just can't believe how arrogant they've been, and that none of them care that Brinn's great victory cost Seadreamer's life. Or that Brinn had already been judged (by himself) as unworthy b/c of the Merewives, which should call into question their whole way of judging worth.

*sigh* All that perfect racial memory of eons, yet they haven't learned the lessons of history. Bannor seems to be the only Haruchai who really *learns* something about life, to me. (I used to think Cail had, too, but Esmer makes me doubt that.)
None of Donaldson's characters progress - spiritually, internally, or what-have-you. Covenant learned something by the end of the 1st Chrons, but it was a lesson easily learned because it didn't require his believing in anything, it only required his emotional commitment to the Land.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
chaplainchris
Stonedownor
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:02 pm

Post by chaplainchris »

Come now, Worm, that's overly cynical! Covenant's lesson certainly wasn't easily learned! Otherwise the 1st chronicles wouldn't have been so torturous. But Covenant did progress, and it changed how he lived for the next 10 years in the real world. And he grew again in the 2nd Chronicles, from the crazy "Never let him have it!" refusal to give up the fight, to acceptance - the grace to bear what must be borne.

Linden shows some regression, I must admit - her self-doubt, her dependence on Covenant, her repeated refusal to accept that the ring is hers - but she also continually points out that she's *not* the woman she was pre-Covenant. She's overcome the legacy of unlove and paralysis. And she does "not choose to be defeated!" Sunder grew, Foamfollower learned to forgive himself, even Mhoram learned to a) overcome his fear of trusting the other Lords with knowledge of Desecration, and b) his dependence on Kevin's Lore.

Heck, even Haruchai and Ranhyn can change. I might argue that only Foul truly fails to change.
"The glory of God is a human being who is fully alive." - St. Irenaeus
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

chaplainchris wrote:Come now, Worm, that's overly cynical! Covenant's lesson certainly wasn't easily learned! Otherwise the 1st chronicles wouldn't have been so torturous. But Covenant did progress, and it changed how he lived for the next 10 years in the real world. And he grew again in the 2nd Chronicles, from the crazy "Never let him have it!" refusal to give up the fight, to acceptance - the grace to bear what must be borne.

Linden shows some regression, I must admit - her self-doubt, her dependence on Covenant, her repeated refusal to accept that the ring is hers - but she also continually points out that she's *not* the woman she was pre-Covenant. She's overcome the legacy of unlove and paralysis. And she does "not choose to be defeated!" Sunder grew, Foamfollower learned to forgive himself, even Mhoram learned to a) overcome his fear of trusting the other Lords with knowledge of Desecration, and b) his dependence on Kevin's Lore.

Heck, even Haruchai and Ranhyn can change. I might argue that only Foul truly fails to change.
Change? Yes of course, change makes the characters more interesting. But Foul has certainly changed over the millennia, and in the beginning of the Last Chrons he comes off as really carefree. (He knows that, thanks to his soulmate Linden Foul-wife, his gaol and torment are finally almost over.)

Of course Foul hasn't had a change of heart, the only kind of change that matters, because he has no heart. There is no fundamental spiritual change. Evil is evil, and Foul is the main representative of evil. Other beings in the Land's Earth are also iconic representatives. The Haruchai still consider weapons of power a threat, they've only changed their methods. The Ranyhyn can't change, they are animals.

Mhoram - the only true iconic representative of pure heroic greatness in the entire Chrons. Others have only behaved heroically now and then, but their inner core was often ambiguous and conflicted. (Donaldson, ever the existentialist, loves to produce that kind of character.) Mhoram, a very lovely iconic character (like Perseus) who possessed no inner Despiser, cannot progress because he was already "there" with his ever-present flawless moral character.

Characters have definitely progressed in a sense. Foul, whom you claim cannot change, has definitely made progress. But Linden, in the Last Chrons, is just the iconic mommy stereotype; every breath she takes while in the Land only serves to further Foul's ends, and she appears to have regressed as you say.

But character progression is weak. Covenant, at the end of the First Chrons, has not learned to love himself, he has only been given a reason to go on living, write more books, etc. That is more of a reconciliation with himself and his illness. He fought against his delusion in the Land, but it was mostly passive-aggression. In the end he did not even take up white gold against Foul, and in the final battle he was lucky to reach the Illearth Stone before Foul could physically stop him. (Elena's "strike a blow for me!" turned into merely laughing at Foul until he became an embryo again.) In this sense, the First Chrons will always remain dissatisfying, and the reader has to take gratification from the success of Mhoram and the lords.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
blingdomepiece
Servant of the Land
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:01 am

Post by blingdomepiece »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Mhoram - the only true iconic representative of pure heroic greatness in the entire Chrons. Others have only behaved heroically now and then, but their inner core was often ambiguous and conflicted. (Donaldson, ever the existentialist, loves to produce that kind of character.) Mhoram, a very lovely iconic character (like Perseus) who possessed no inner Despiser, cannot progress because he was already "there" with his ever-present flawless moral character.
Mhoram, who had to realize that passion and breaking the Oath of Peace were the keys to unlocking more power?

Mhoram, who withheld information from other Lords on the Council that could have been used earlier in the defense of the city?
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Breaking the Oath was the key to unlocking Kevin's lore, but also the path to Desecration, which is why he withheld knowledge from the other lords. So I wouldn't say that Mhoram was trying to unlock more external power, the key to using power derives from within. The answer to this was not in Kevin's lore at all.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
DrPaul
Giantfriend
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:51 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Post by DrPaul »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Breaking the Oath was the key to unlocking Kevin's lore, but also the path to Desecration, which is why he withheld knowledge from the other lords. So I wouldn't say that Mhoram was trying to unlock more external power, the key to using power derives from within. The answer to this was not in Kevin's lore at all.
Remember also that we are shown Mhoram wrestling with his conscience throughout the relevant chapters of TPTP before deciding to make the knowledge knwn to the other Lords and trusting that they could avoid succumbing to temptation in despair.
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

DrPaul wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Breaking the Oath was the key to unlocking Kevin's lore, but also the path to Desecration, which is why he withheld knowledge from the other lords. So I wouldn't say that Mhoram was trying to unlock more external power, the key to using power derives from within. The answer to this was not in Kevin's lore at all.
Remember also that we are shown Mhoram wrestling with his conscience throughout the relevant chapters of TPTP before deciding to make the knowledge knwn to the other Lords and trusting that they could avoid succumbing to temptation in despair.
Agreed. Mhoram had an internal conflict. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
chaplainchris
Stonedownor
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:02 pm

Post by chaplainchris »

Yes, but the point is that Mhoram (who is the most awesome and lovable character to me) wasn't already "there" - he wasn't perfect and wrestled with his conscience. In particular, he was wrestling with the fact that he, who'd always said he believed in honesty and full trust of others, found himself unable to trust. His faith, so essential to his character, was missing and had to be found again. Mhoram, who was so dauntless that his mere touch frightened away a Raver, was nearly daunted. He has to grow to a new level of faith before he shares the secrets of Desecration - and this shows growth in his character.

Another, shorter, way to say this - in IW, Mhoram tells Covenant he's not High Lord b/c "My time has not yet come." He has to grow into the position, and does so in TPTP.
"The glory of God is a human being who is fully alive." - St. Irenaeus
User avatar
thewormoftheworld'send
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:40 am
Location: Idaho
Contact:

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

chaplainchris wrote:Yes, but the point is that Mhoram (who is the most awesome and lovable character to me) wasn't already "there" - he wasn't perfect and wrestled with his conscience. In particular, he was wrestling with the fact that he, who'd always said he believed in honesty and full trust of others, found himself unable to trust. His faith, so essential to his character, was missing and had to be found again. Mhoram, who was so dauntless that his mere touch frightened away a Raver, was nearly daunted. He has to grow to a new level of faith before he shares the secrets of Desecration - and this shows growth in his character.

Another, shorter, way to say this - in IW, Mhoram tells Covenant he's not High Lord b/c "My time has not yet come." He has to grow into the position, and does so in TPTP.
Thank you chaplainchris, that was a very informative post :)
Tales of a Warrior-Prophet has gone Live on Amazon KDP Vella! I'm very excited to offer the first three chapters for free. Please comment, review and rate, and of course Follow to receive more episodes. Two hundred free tokens may be available for purchases. https://www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/episode/B09YQQYMKH

Read my Whachichun Tatanka (White Buffalo) Blog: https://www.blogger.com/blog/posts/8175040473578337186
FB: https://www.facebook.com/WhiteBuffalo.W ... unTatanka/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/white_buffalo
Harrad
Servant of the Land
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:57 pm

Post by Harrad »

In some literature the characters have flaws. In SD the flaws have character.
Post Reply

Return to “Against All Things Ending”