Plotting in The Wounded Land

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Barnetto
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Plotting in The Wounded Land

Post by Barnetto »

Rereading the Second Chronicles and I can't help feeling that some of the plotting feels "wrong" to me. A few examples:

- Vain is given to TC by dead Foamfollower (this just raises too many unanswered questions for me such as why would the Ur-Viles would give Vain to Foamy, how they even contact TC's dead, what is the relationship between the dead and physical objects (given their ephemeral nature) etc). I can't help feeling that it would have been better for TC to meet an Ur-Vile wedge that left, unexplained, Vain with TC for TC to pick up insights as to Vain's purpose as things developed through eg the Waynhim, Vain's actions etc

- the fact that TC is able to invoke the protection of Vain on just one and only one occasion. This is just too random and unexplained for me.

- the fact that Hamako could have "gone native" with the Waynhim in the space of a mere 20 months (surely he should have been rescued by them as a child and brought up by them to explain the level of integration with them he achieved - though this might be a bit too stereotyped)

- the appearance of a myriad of deformed cavewights at just the point the Grim overtook the search. (Just too much coincidence and I completely failed to see what this added to the scenario - in fact, it completely detracted from the Grim itself in my view).

Just wondered if others felt similarly - by contrast I thought the plotting of the First Chronicles felt just right throughout. (Though I should add that I am still enjoying the Second Chronicles - other aspects are epic, such as the redemption of the Unhomed in TC's conflagration of white fire - one of the most emotive aspects of all the books I've reread, for me.)

As usual, happy to be put right! :?
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Re: Plotting in The Wounded Land

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Barnetto wrote:Rereading the Second Chronicles and I can't help feeling that some of the plotting feels "wrong" to me. A few examples:

- Vain is given to TC by dead Foamfollower (this just raises too many unanswered questions for me such as why would the Ur-Viles would give Vain to Foamy, how they even contact TC's dead, what is the relationship between the dead and physical objects (given their ephemeral nature) etc). I can't help feeling that it would have been better for TC to meet an Ur-Vile wedge that left, unexplained, Vain with TC for TC to pick up insights as to Vain's purpose as things developed through eg the Waynhim, Vain's actions etc

- the fact that TC is able to invoke the protection of Vain on just one and only one occasion. This is just too random and unexplained for me.

- the fact that Hamako could have "gone native" with the Waynhim in the space of a mere 20 months (surely he should have been rescued by them as a child and brought up by them to explain the level of integration with them he achieved - though this might be a bit too stereotyped)

- the appearance of a myriad of deformed cavewights at just the point the Grim overtook the search. (Just too much coincidence and I completely failed to see what this added to the scenario - in fact, it completely detracted from the Grim itself in my view).

Just wondered if others felt similarly - by contrast I thought the plotting of the First Chronicles felt just right throughout. (Though I should add that I am still enjoying the Second Chronicles - other aspects are epic, such as the redemption of the Unhomed in TC's conflagration of white fire - one of the most emotive aspects of all the books I've reread, for me.)

As usual, happy to be put right! :?
:)
I think thatt If Vain had been left with no explanation by Urviles with Covenant, TC would definitely not trust him or his purpose and probably would have told the clave to destroy him if they could because he must have some horrible reason for being, considering nothing could harm him unless directly assaulted by some type of fire or theurgy and he had come from Urviles.. Had the Waynhim created Vain...who knows, but Coming from Foamfollower - the person TC trusted more than possibly even Mhoram, he had to believe that the purpose was great and for the lands need rather than harm. also the Urviles were not natural so they may have been able to see all or at least one of the dead of their choosing, unlike the people who lived by law only being able to see their own dead. I cant really explain that part other than the urviles had alot of Lore that went untold.

Vain only being able to be commanded once may fall under the rule as Earthbloods command did.. you get one commnand and thats it.. if TC had unlimited commands he may have just said..vain..kill the NaMhoram, Vain.. go get me a branch from the one tree, Vain.. save Hamako and the Rhysh, Vain.. take my ring and save the land.... :) and the big one... Vain...tell me your purpose.. dunno I think in this case one command may have been because the Urviles knew and feared giving him more than one command and that caused TC to have to use it wisely as he did to save his life, they were probably very fearful of giving Vain even that one Command. Other commands were given to Vain such as Save the Sunsage from imminent danger etc....

Im pretty sure Hamakos People were not killed when he was a child,and with the Waynhims ability to give blood as they did to TC so he could cover large amounts of territory in a short time its possible that the Waynhim were also able to do the same with Knowledge or some other ability.
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about the Grim and Cavewights, ..it prevented the company from being able to flee the Grim by courser and speed.. they had to stop and fight rather than just being able to stay at the fringes of the grims attack. it also allowed for Memla to be killed, enabling Sunder to come into his Power. about the coincidence, had it been a small party of cavewights i would agree but I think it was described as being an endless March that the haruchai could not see the beginning or end of the Cavewights trail. I do agree it took away from the Grim.. but we had to deal with another one of those when the company went back to Revelstone. :D

I agree about TC giving the Dead of the Grieve their last Caamora being one of the most epic scenes or parts of the story also. I re read that section a few times the first time i read it.
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Re: Plotting in The Wounded Land

Post by Barnetto »

Blackhawk wrote:if TC had unlimited commands he may have just said..vain..kill the NaMhoram, Vain.. go get me a branch from the one tree, Vain.. save Hamako and the Rhysh, Vain.. take my ring and save the land.... :)
Thanks for the thoughts, Blackhawk. As regards the point you make above, I think the point was that Covenant could simply ask Vain to save him. He couldn't control how he did so and he couldn't give him specific commands. So just think how much more powerful it would have been had Covenant had the choice to command Vain again (to save him), but, knowing the dire consequences of unleashing Vain (see his body tally at Stonemight Woodhelven for details) just couldn't bring himself to do it for fear of what Vain might do. Just the same problem he had with the use of his ring in the Second Chronicles.

At the end of the day, I guess it is a fairly pointless exercise suggesting that some of the plot elements might have been dealt with differently, but these points had been really bugging me!
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Post by peter »

As good athread in two posts as I've read in a long time. As a 'pick it up and read it, but dont think about it too much' type of reader I am as envious of Barnetto's ability to spot overly contrived or loose plotting as much as I am of Blackhawk's ability to overturn statements that to me seemed moments before , solid as a rock. Well done guys!
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

I always thought the command part with Vain was the one necessary flaw in his perfection. Like the Sandgorgon's Doom.
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Post by wayfriend »

One response I have is: Donaldson had a hurdle to jump if he expected the readers to be on the fence about Vain. If the ur-viles had given Vain to Covenant directly, we would not be on the fence - we'd be pretty sure he was of malign intent. Nor would we have any reason to believe the ur-viles had a change of heart. By involving Foamfollower, Donaldson accomplishes two things: he creates tension about Vain because we have clues he is good and clues he is bad, and he strengthens the idea that the ur-viles aren't serving Foul.

I think the idea of Covenant commanding Vain more than once, but fearing to, is to exactly the same with his venom/wild magic problem.

As for the Cavewights, that's Donaldson's style. It's not just a Raver ... it's a giant Raver with a piece of the Illearth Stone ... it's not just the Grim ... it's a Grim under a Sun of Pestilence with rabid Cavewights on a Sea of Graveling ....

Donaldson creates higher and higher levels of danger. One way he does so is these combinations. And he needs more and more danger because Covenant needs to be challenged.

Hamako? He lived under the Sunbane, he was probably already lore-wise to some extent. (Was he a graveler?) I don't see his ability to live with the waynhim too astounding, nor his ability to learn some of their lore.
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Post by Vraith »

I like HLT's idea about the necessary flaw...it's purely speculative, but cool.

But the other thing with Vain: It was most important that he fulfill his purpose, for that he needed autonomy, his makers had to ensure outside commands wouldn't interfere with that...and it's apparent that the ur-viles have some vision of the future, so likely knew [though not necessarily in detail...the future is tricky] there was a point of crisis where success/failure would depend on the ability to command Vain.
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Post by peter »

Slightly off topic, but it always seemed to me that the use of Vains single command was sort of 'trite' (if that is the right word) when it came. Don't get me wrong I'm sure that in the face of certain death I would have been just as ready as TC to scream 'Nekrimah Vain - Save me!' - but it was almost as though Donaldson, once he had given this potentially earth shattering power to TC in the form of 'the command' didn't quite know what to do with it and so just burned it up in a run of the mill 'save me' situation. Not, I think, Donaldsons finest hour as a writer but hell - small scale stuff in the face of the whole achievement.
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Post by Barnetto »

I can't buy the idea that the ur-Viles had so much prescience and knew the future so intimately that the realised that Vain would need to be commanded to save TC once and only once. And I agree with Peter that using up that command so quickly does seem a little odd - it doesn't seem that he got the most out of it. (What I did like, as previously indicated, was the fact that TC had no control over how Vain saved him and so was then guilt ridden over the body count.)

The other thing to remember is that Vain doesn't actually need any commanding to save Linden on occasions (such as from the sea of gravelling) as she is necessary to the achievement of his purpose (or so it seems to me). Though perhaps we might speculate that if the sea of graveling had been hot enough to melt the white gold ring, then presumably Vain would have been required to save TC too....
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Post by Barnetto »

wayfriend wrote:I think the idea of Covenant commanding Vain more than once, but fearing to, is to exactly the same with his venom/wild magic problem.
Agreed - that was the point I was trying to make when I referred to "the problem he had with the use of his ring in the Second Chronicles". As such, maybe it would have been overkill - but then again, as you point out, SRD isn't afraid of using overkill!
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Post by amanibhavam »

Barnetto wrote: (What I did like, as previously indicated, was the fact that TC had no control over how Vain saved him and so was then guilt ridden over the body count.)
I think that was the whole purpose of this plot device: it further deepened TC's distrust towards Vain and deepened his guilt over the violence done in his name.
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Post by Barnetto »

Sorry, there was one other plot element that I meant to mention that bugged me. When TC et al are in the Sarangrave heading east towards Seareach, there occurs a Sun of Rain.

As I read this, I thought "Oh, oh, sink or swim time for the quest". It was inevitable that all that water falling on the upper land is going to raise water levels in the Sarangrave - think of how much water fell during the escape from Crystal Stonedown - and cause all sorts of problems for them. But there is then not a single mention of the water levels rising!

Now I know that most of the water would have run down through Mount Thunder via the Defiles Course and into Lifeswallower, but the catchment area for this river is truly immense covering most of the Upper Land. Sarangrave was a marshy area where the Lurker lived in the deeps and it's got to have been affected by the run off from Landsdrop and the flooding of Defiles Course! Please!

(Hell, I'm surprised that Mount Thunder wasn't actually physically undermined by the amount of water passing through it during the time of the SunBane! Lord Foul must have had an army of cavewights shoring it up against the natural erosion processes going on! :) )
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Post by Vraith »

Barnetto wrote:Sorry, there was one other plot element that I meant to mention that bugged me. When TC et al are in the Sarangrave heading east towards Seareach, there occurs a Sun of Rain.

As I read this, I thought "Oh, oh, sink or swim time for the quest". It was inevitable that all that water falling on the upper land is going to raise water levels in the Sarangrave - think of how much water fell during the escape from Crystal Stonedown - and cause all sorts of problems for them. But there is then not a single mention of the water levels rising!

Now I know that most of the water would have run down through Mount Thunder via the Defiles Course and into Lifeswallower, but the catchment area for this river is truly immense covering most of the Upper Land. Sarangrave was a marshy area where the Lurker lived in the deeps and it's got to have been affected by the run off from Landsdrop and the flooding of Defiles Course! Please!

(Hell, I'm surprised that Mount Thunder wasn't actually physically undermined by the amount of water passing through it during the time of the SunBane! Lord Foul must have had an army of cavewights shoring it up against the natural erosion processes going on! :) )
Hmmm...never thought of that one. Water is tricky. It does seem that the warrens would be cycling through drought/flash flood like the aroyos [sp?] in SW states. The swamp and flats might not flood because of this, though.
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Post by peter »

wayfriend wrote:I think the idea of Covenant commanding Vain more than once, but fearing to, is to exactly the same with his venom/wild magic problem.
Sorry Wayfriend - You've lost me a bit on this one. I thought (as Barnetto says) Covenant was limited to one use of the command. I can't see where Covenant's fear or otherwise of commanding Vain again comes into it since he cannot do it. Mind you - given the results of his use of the command I can fully see why he wouldn't want to use it again even if he could.
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Post by wayfriend »

peter wrote:
wayfriend wrote:I think the idea of Covenant commanding Vain more than once, but fearing to, is to exactly the same with his venom/wild magic problem.
Sorry Wayfriend - You've lost me a bit on this one. I thought (as Barnetto says) Covenant was limited to one use of the command.
I was refering to Barnetto's proposed alternate version, where Covenant could command more than once.
peter wrote:Slightly off topic, but it always seemed to me that the use of Vains single command was sort of 'trite' (if that is the right word) when it came.
Donaldson created a story tension where we all were left wondering if Covenant had "wasted" his one command. I liked it.

The alternative was for him to save it until the perfect moment. But, really, how can that compete with "Nom"?

We have to look at this one by plotting the story backwards. Covanant gets Vain from the ur-viles, but he has to be convinced to trust him, since Vain is so enigmatic and we are meant to be on the fence about him. So: the command. The ur-viles demonstrate that they have Covenant's well-being in mind, but the result doesn't greatly derail the plot.

I'm sure it might have been possible to work the "one command" into the plot-line more centrally. I guess Donaldson thought that the story wasn't improved thereby.
Barnetto wrote:But there is then not a single mention of the water levels rising!

Well, you can argue that it takes days for such changes to manifest way out in the Sarangrave (as opposed to the Lifeswaller, which as has been pointed out is more directly affected by the upper Land), or that such risings are only during "abnormal" amounts of rain, whereas the normal cycle of rain every week or so would not affect the equilibrium.

But in the end, it's really a matter of, Donaldson didn't need it. It didn't add anything. Probably, it would have made the skest attack impossible, and he wanted to get the skest in to get the sur-jeherrin in. Or something like that.
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Post by Barnetto »

wayfriend wrote:Well, you can argue that it takes days for such changes to manifest way out in the Sarangrave (as opposed to the Lifeswaller, which as has been pointed out is more directly affected by the upper Land), or that such risings are only during "abnormal" amounts of rain, whereas the normal cycle of rain every week or so would not affect the equilibrium.

But in the end, it's really a matter of, Donaldson didn't need it.
I completely accept Donaldson's freedom to ignore stuff that is extraneous to the novels. So, he doesn't have to tell us anything about anything that doesn't impinge on the story line directly - the Douglas Adams Fallacy as he describes it in the GI. We don't need to know the name of TC's first novel, for example.

However, I reject the suggestion that he isn't obliged to retain internal consistency within his plot. So, if the three days of the most apocalyptic rain would inevitably have raised water levels in an area of marshland at the foot of a large cliff (ie a place like the Sarangrave), then he can't simply choose to ignore that effect cos it doesn't fit in with his desired plot!!

Your alternative suggestion, that it would just take longer to seep out across the Lower Land to the Sarangrave is the only viable excuse, from my perspective (it was me who pointed out that Lifeswallower is more directly affected to pre-empt that point). However, I just don't find it particularly plausible. At the very least, if you try and put yourself in the position of the quest, heading out into the Sarangrave marshland that sits around 1000m below the Upper Land (or something like that), with three days of torrential rain on that Upper Land all spilling down (and let's face it, the Soulease River wouldn't have been able to cope with all that rain from such a large catchment so there would have been a lot of run off elsewhere) would you not have been thinking to yourself, "Hellfire, we are stuck in the middle of a marshland area with all that water heading off the Upper Land our way... oh bugger!". But they don't give it a thought (yes, I know they are a bit pre-occupied but...).

[There is of course the wider problem of where would all that rain come from? The sunbane only affects the Upper Land. There is nowhere near enough water on the Upper Land to warrant the deluge from the Sun of Rain. So all that water has to come from the Sunbirth Sea. So Foul has to somehow manipulate not only the weather of the Upper Land but also the weather systems a long way out to sea in a complex way to guarantee that sort of deluge. If he is doing that, then it isn't via the sunbane. By contrast, the other suns (pestilence, desert, fertile) do not depend on anything other than the corruption of earthpower on the Upper Land.

I do, however, accept that this is taking the analysis too far. We have to give the author some licence in a Fantasy novel so that not absolutely everything needs to be physically explained. I just found it interesting as a physical explanation would require, it seems to me, a much wider area of significant and regular influence on the part of Foul. (You could perhaps argue that creating extreme low pressure over the Upper Land might draw in moisture rich clouds from the Sunbirth Sea - but weather is complex - and it might just as easily draw in dry winds from the Southron Wastes etc.)

OK, at this point I'll stop! ]
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Post by wayfriend »

Barnetto,

The other plausible idea is that there is spat of Suns of Rain every so often, on average 3 days out of every 12. Since flood levels don't rise and fall quickly (living in New England, I am keenly aware of this today!!), the Sarangrave would be at some sort of equilibrium level, and it would not rise or fall significantly unless this rate changed for a long period of time.

Another plausible idea is that the Sunbane sucks the water up again before it reaches the sea. To be used again with the next Sun of Rain.

Another plausible idea is that a herd of warped waynhim suck up all the extra water through straws, until their bellies expand to the size of small moons. The hold it there until the next Sun of Rain, at which time they blow it out the straws with extreme force, so that it rains down in the upper Land.
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Post by Barnetto »

wayfriend wrote: Another plausible idea is that a herd of warped waynhim suck up all the extra water through straws, until their bellies expand to the size of small moons. The hold it there until the next Sun of Rain, at which time they blow it out the straws with extreme force, so that it rains down in the upper Land.
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Post by matrixman »

Barnetto wrote:- the appearance of a myriad of deformed cavewights at just the point the Grim overtook the search. (Just too much coincidence and I completely failed to see what this added to the scenario - in fact, it completely detracted from the Grim itself in my view).
I just have some thoughts about this. I appreciate this scene in TWL beyond its function as a plot marker in the book. It provides a focus point for Memla's self-sacrifice and heroism. Her last stand and fall evokes for me the memory of the Unfettered in LFB who fought the ur-viles so that Covenant and Atiaran could escape. Valiant but failed strength. A major reason why Memla as well as other TC supporting characters stand so vividly in my mind is because of the situations SRD puts them in. There is no guarantee of their survival, and if they do make it through, they still pay a price in one way or another. Meanwhile, their personal courage and integrity - Memla's in the face of the Clave's betrayal of her trust in the Rede - make their demise all the more heartbreaking. The hopelessness of Memla's final stand in defense of her companions, her belief that she led them into folly, cranks up the emotive power of this scene to an extraordinary degree.

I personally thought the warped Cavewights were a brilliant stroke for sheer visual impact. They helped populate the Sunbane-era Land, added to its alien feel. Like what wayfriend said earlier, SRD amps up the terror: they're not just your average neighborly Cavewights but grotesque perversions of what they once were, like everything else under the Sunbane.

In the end, of course, it's just my opinion, but I'm entitled to it, just as you also have every right to air yours. :biggrin:
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Post by peter »

Good analysis of the scene Matrixman. I with the presence of the Cavewights on this. I think they add to the 'set peice' of the fight against the Grim and would not have thought of them as over-egging the cake. :D
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