Kevin's Watch

Besides the obvious implications that THOOLAH has a new hero...

Doesn't this comment by Kevin just seem a bit *too* obvious? It's even italicized, just in case someone missed it... I guess it's supposed to lead us to think Kevin has somehow been able to influence Longwrath, but coming right away in the first chapter, I'm not buying it. Kind of like "Find Me" as a chapter title, right before "TC" shows up.

Thoughts? Is Kevin the driving force behind the crazy Giant, or has SRD slipped us some misdirection?

(Though probably it's not that simple )

I don't think it necessarily follows that Kevin might be behind Longwrath's obsession. Remember that Kevin waited and watched in silence while Linden summoned Covenant and the Lawbreakers. It was only after she resurrected Covenant and roused the Worm that Kevin called on her to be slain and the Masters attempted to do just that. Longwrath, in the other hand, is afflicted with something akin to Seadreamers Earthsight in The Second Chronicles, and has been screaming "slay her" for quite some time before he and the other Giants reached the Land.

From:
At Intermission: Top News Stories from The Land

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18583

Lord Kevin and Longwrath caught in shouting match:
Each one claims their version of "Slay her" is better.

Added:

It may well have been Kevin who is behind Longwrath's obsession.
Remember that Kevin was under the "Silence" imposed before Linden made her decision to resurrect Thomas. Only then does he shout to "Slay her"
Berek talked about Kevins crimes and it may not have been the RoD. It may be Kevin's doing that has made Longwrath what he is.
Also Kevin still may be under Foul's influence and be one of the places that Foul slipped a word/hint here and there.

I remember making several posts on this subject awhile back . . . I am very curious as to who/what is behind the whole "Longwrath" possession . . . .

I'd like to point out again that based on the story told of Longwrath, his possession and subsequent ranting of "Slay Her" started long before Linden even came to the land . . .

She really hasn't been in the Land all that long . . . whereas Longwrath's tale goes back months, maybe even over a year.

It could be that he was anticipating her arrival, but I think that Donaldson is throwing us a distinct Red Herring here. "Slay Her" is generic enough that I think we will all find it wasn't really about Linden in the first place.

Further support for this can be found in Longwrath's sword . . . why the importance of a special sword powerful enough to slay Sandgorgons when one simple blow of his fist would be enough to kill Linden?

That's a good point. And the Harrow, in his typically understated manner, says something to the effect of "his sword holds some little interest..."

This was discussed a bit elsewhere, a number of interesting thoughts on it.
Oneof mine [which may not have been one of the interesting ones.. ]
involves [as mentioned] that "slay her" has been around longer than Linden, and that the phrase has changed, and that Longwrath's obsession/madness has gotten worse...all of which is just background for: Linden is not the ONLY female with white-gold power in the land, and if you follow the line Longwrath has been following, it leads directly to Joan's location...[though I don't recall right now if her location is "known" or just hinted at, or assumed...]

On the other hand, if Linden wasn't Longwrath's target, then why did he try so hard to get into Andelain where she was? (Unless Joan was somehow lurking in there without anyone noticing...)

I was not a part of that discussion referred to, so don't know if that question has already been worked over and its carcass buried.

matrixman wrote:On the other hand, if Linden wasn't Longwrath's target, then why did he try so hard to get into Andelain where she was? (Unless Joan was somehow lurking in there without anyone noticing...)

I was not a part of that discussion referred to, so don't know if that question has already been worked over and its carcass buried.

There were a number of opinions, as you might imagine. My speculation was that, since Longwrath is mad, and obsessed, the sight of a woman weilding power, who also happens to have white-gold, on his path: in his addled state he can't distinquish one from the other [I also speculate: the skurj were unaware of the Giants, then suddenly for unknown reasons they were; Kastenessen used the skurj to herd the Giants towards Linden, to intentionally send mad Longwrath to her.]

Vraith wrote:[I also speculate: the skurj were unaware of the Giants, then suddenly for unknown reasons they were; Kastenessen used the skurj to herd the Giants towards Linden, to intentionally send mad Longwrath to her.]

That's an interesting thought! It could also be that the skurj aren't really aware of the Giants, but do sense the various powers of Linden/staff/ring, Liand/orcrest, Anele, Masters, ... but this makes sense. Kastenessen would know where Linden is and it would be easy to do.

But I like this idea for another reason though: if true, it differentiates this "coincidental" encounter with a party of Giants from the one in the Wounded Land and makes it feel more organic to the story, instead of rehashing.

Vraith and Relayer, your lines of reasoning work for me. It does make me feel better about this second sudden appearance of Giants in the saga.

Good points by Beyondthebreach, too.

I remember a discussion about Longwrath. I suggested that when Longwrath was given his sight, Linden wasn't in the land but Joan was.
He had a general direction at first. Across the wide ocean. Only then could he tune in to Joans use of power.
But Linden shows up and gets ahold of the SoL. She uses it much more readily than Joan causes ceasures. I'm not sure if Longwrath can sense specfic differences betwen Joan's power use and Lindens.
He may be able to tune into the properties of White Gold and he gravitates to where the being with the White Gold has used the most power. That would be Linden.
Joan may be masked by her tenders, and in his madness, Longwrath can't tell the difference.


Or it maybe Kevin has caused Longwrath's madness and was trying throught the Giant to stop what Kevin though was a Desecration.
As above this may be the crimes that Bereks speaks of. The dead influencing the living.

Ur Dead wrote: Or it maybe Kevin has caused Longwrath's madness and was trying throught the Giant to stop what Kevin though was a Desecration.
As above this may be the crimes that Bereks speaks of. The dead influencing the living.

Heh...the quality of the idea is fine....I just really REALLY hope your wrong.
I don't want ANY of these dead damn Lords influencing events [except of course when they meet people and say things like in Andelain now...that's ok...just don't want any dead-Lord "Kingpins."

Vraith wrote: I don't want ANY of these dead damn Lords influencing events [except of course when they meet people and say things like in Andelain now...that's ok...just don't want any dead-Lord "Kingpins."

Why not? That would make it interesting. Especially if Loric could get hold of his krill again and make it DO something for once. Berek with the new Staff of Law... Kevin creating another Desecration...

Hmmm... many things of interest could happen!

And be honest, wouldn't you like to see High Lord Mhoram riding to victory one last time?

MrKABC wrote:

Vraith wrote: I don't want ANY of these dead damn Lords influencing events [except of course when they meet people and say things like in Andelain now...that's ok...just don't want any dead-Lord "Kingpins."

Why not? That would make it interesting. Especially if Loric could get hold of his krill again and make it DO something for once. Berek with the new Staff of Law... Kevin creating another Desecration...

Hmmm... many things of interest could happen!

And be honest, wouldn't you like to see High Lord Mhoram riding to victory one last time?

Those things could be fun to see [especially Loric and Mhoram for me]...but I have a prejudice against the "Everything good, real, true, important, powerful, yada yada...is Ancient" fantasy arc...I don't mind them as supporting cast, just don't want them be prime movers.

How long has Joan been in the Land? We are led to think that she summoned just moments before Linden was, but maybe not? She's been catatonic for a long, long time. Was she brought over (by whom and how?) back when she first started bashing her forehead in the mental hospital?
And I still think Jeremiah too may have been in the Land for a long while also, accounting for his pseudo-autism in his own world. My original speculation is that the Ur-Viles grabbed him back at the beginning of the 2nd Chrons, during the sacrifice (maybe they were trying for Linden instead, then discovered Lord Foul wanted her) and this is why Foul turned against them in WGW, since it's never explicitly stated, except as Linden's guess, that Vain was the reason for his anger with them.

Aleksandr wrote:How long has Joan been in the Land? We are led to think that she summoned just moments before Linden was, but maybe not? She's been catatonic for a long, long time. Was she brought over (by whom and how?) back when she first started bashing her forehead in the mental hospital?
And I still think Jeremiah too may have been in the Land for a long while also, accounting for his pseudo-autism in his own world. My original speculation is that the Ur-Viles grabbed him back at the beginning of the 2nd Chrons, during the sacrifice (maybe they were trying for Linden instead, then discovered Lord Foul wanted her) and this is why Foul turned against them in WGW, since it's never explicitly stated, except as Linden's guess, that Vain was the reason for his anger with them.

As the Arch begins to crumble the distance between worlds begins to decrease, making travel between the "real" world and the Land far easier.
At one time (2nd Chrons) Foul required bonfires and rituals, but no more.

Jeremiah was corrupted at the beginning of the 2nd Chrons, he's been in and out of the Land ever since. Joan was corrupted by Foul around the same time, some time before the beginning of TWL. We don't know when she first visited the Land.

I don't think Jeremiah has "pseudo-autism." I think he has real autism. I don't see how the ur-viles could have grabbed him at any time. I don't recall Foul turning against the ur-viles, the ur-viles turned against Foul.

We have a hint [though it's from C-Jeremiah] of 2 different kinds of "presences" in the land...an, for lack of a better term, Spirit kind, and a more complete kind, where the Land in some way "embodies" you. I don't think Joan or Jeremiah were ever embodied till the scene we see, when the whole bunch crosses over...
I have no evidence other than paralleling other happenings, but I suspect Joan started reaching the Land [as opposed to LF reaching her in our world] right about the same time that she was committed [bound, with peeps shoving drugs and shit down her throat, in both worlds]...possibly a bit later, when her ring was given back, but I think the former [if I'm remembering events correctly].
The easing of translation may be due to problems with the Arch...but I think more closely with problems with Law's broken...I can imagine a universe where peeps cross freely from ours to theirs [theirs to ours is more problematic], without the Arch falling...at least not immediately..how much white gold would be exported to the Land, at incredible profit, if that were the case? Heh...headline: "Eh-Brand Supplanted by E-Bay!"

Vraith wrote:We have a hint [though it's from C-Jeremiah] of 2 different kinds of "presences" in the land...an, for lack of a better term, Spirit kind, and a more complete kind, where the Land in some way "embodies" you. I don't think Joan or Jeremiah were ever embodied till the scene we see, when the whole bunch crosses over...

Yes, I remember the scene you're talking about with C-Jeremiah.

Vraith wrote:I have no evidence other than paralleling other happenings, but I suspect Joan started reaching the Land [as opposed to LF reaching her in our world] right about the same time that she was committed [bound, with peeps shoving drugs and shit down her throat, in both worlds]...possibly a bit later, when her ring was given back, but I think the former [if I'm remembering events correctly].

About the same time - or really, her crossing-over was misdiagnosed as mental illness. I speculate that all she really has are migraine or cluster headaches, because Linden sees the caesures as "migraines." They seem more like cluster headaches because of their number. I speculate that Foul has promised her freedom from her pain in the Land in order to gain her allegiance.

Vraith wrote:The easing of translation may be due to problems with the Arch...but I think more closely with problems with Law's broken...I can imagine a universe where peeps cross freely from ours to theirs [theirs to ours is more problematic], without the Arch falling...at least not immediately..how much white gold would be exported to the Land, at incredible profit, if that were the case? Heh...headline: "Eh-Brand Supplanted by E-Bay!"

At first it was due to Laws being broken. That's why Foul was able to appear in the bonfire. Now the crumbling of the Law of Time itself is making the transition easier.

I think he has real autism.

Somehwere in the GI I think Donaldson noted that Jeremiah isn't *really* autistic, because his symptoms and the progress of his conditon do not track that of actual autism (which is not a psychological response to trauma as Jeremiah's condtiion is). that's why I used the term "pseudo-autism".

I don't recall Foul turning against the ur-viles, the ur-viles turned against Foul.

In WGW "The Eh-Brand" TC, Linden and company encounter sunbane-warped Ur-Viles, and we are led to believe that Foul had gotten really POed at them and had shoved them out into the dawning sunbane. Linden wonders if this is due to their making Vain. Since this is mere speculation of her part, the door is open to another explanation.

On a larger question, I think it's pretty obvious that the Ur-Viles are up to something big and they have been for a long time-- maybe some ultimate plan that goes all the way back to the Viles. In the 2nd Chrons we were also led to think that Findail's resistance to Vain's purpose was wholly personal: he did not want to lose his life. But the other Elohim also tried to destroy Vain, and Findal at least hints that there's stuff going on with Vain and the Ur-Viles that isn't to be trusted (naturally he can't be bothered to come right out and explain anything!)

Aleksandr wrote:

I think he has real autism.

Somehwere in the GI I think Donaldson noted that Jeremiah isn't *really* autistic, because his symptoms and the progress of his conditon do not track that of actual autism (which is not a psychological response to trauma as Jeremiah's condtiion is). that's why I used the term "pseudo-autism".

I remember SRD's response. Yet the descriptions of Jeremiah's condition don't match that of a severely withdrawn child, but of a severely autistic one.

Despite this, I have to go with the psychological explanation since I believe Jeremiah has been corrupted by LF, and autistic children can't be corrupted by anything.

I don't recall Foul turning against the ur-viles, the ur-viles turned against Foul.

Aleksandr wrote:In WGW "The Eh-Brand" TC, Linden and company encounter sunbane-warped Ur-Viles, and we are led to believe that Foul had gotten really POed at them and had shoved them out into the dawning sunbane. Linden wonders if this is due to their making Vain. Since this is mere speculation of her part, the door is open to another explanation.

Of course, Foul is very predictable. But I believe the ur-viles turned against LF first.

Aleksandr wrote:On a larger question, I think it's pretty obvious that the Ur-Viles are up to something big and they have been for a long time-- maybe some ultimate plan that goes all the way back to the Viles. In the 2nd Chrons we were also led to think that Findail's resistance to Vain's purpose was wholly personal: he did not want to lose his life. But the other Elohim also tried to destroy Vain, and Findal at least hints that there's stuff going on with Vain and the Ur-Viles that isn't to be trusted (naturally he can't be bothered to come right out and explain anything!)

People can be self-loathing, self-destructive, yet not suicidal. I never thought the ur-viles were suicidal, although some here think I made that claim. On the contrary, their re-interpretation of their Weird may be along Biblical lines: in order to lose one's life one must first love it. But they cannot love themselves until they have sacrificed themselves as a race for the highest cause in an apotheosis achieved in a single act that is both destructive and creative at the same time.