Geography of the Land

[hyarmion]

I may not be the first person to notice this, but has anyone ever noticed the similarities between the geography of the Land (before the Sunbane) and that of Tolkien's Middle-earth east of the Misty Mountains?

Consider, if we equate the Land's Westron Mountains with the Misty Mountains then Revelwood is Lothlorien (with some similarities), Garroting Deep is Fangorn Forest (with some very obvious similarities), Tolkien's great dark forest Mirkwood has been broken up to become both Grimmerdhorne and Morinmoss, Mount Thunder is the Lonely Mountain (Erebor), and Iron Hills have become Seareach (only populated with Giants rather than Dwarves, big people rather than little people), the Seas of Rhun and Nurnen, have been joined and expanded out to become an ocean. Melenkurion Skywier (a big mountain) is the Mountains of Moria, especially Caradhras, and the caverns under Melenkurion Skywier are the Mines of Moria. The similarities are further enhanced by a look at Pauline Bayne's illustrated map of Middle-earth, a copy of which can be viewed here. You will notice she has decorated the map with a picture of horses dancing in exactly the place where the Plains of Ra would be.

But wait, there's more: Kevin's Watch is Amon Hen (Tolkien's Hill of Sight), Mithil Stonedown is pretty much exactly where Minas Morgul would be. And the old name for Minas Morgul was Minas Ithil (it was the suspicious similarity between the names Mithil and Minas Ithil that got me thinking about all this). And more: Doriendor Corishev is Osgiliath (both ruined cities).

Following this scheme we see that Revelstone is Rivendell (definately some similarities) only moved to the other side of the mountains and made into a fortress city.

Yes, I know there are some things that don't fit, the rivers run the wrong way for a start. And Foul's Creche is little too far North to be equated with Sauron's Barad-dur. And the Land does have some original elements, there is nothing on Tolkien's or Bayne's maps to suggest Andelain, nor Landsdrop nor the Sarangrave.

[Thorhammerhand]

Yes, there are the similarities that you point out.
Yes, SD recognises JRRT as a motivator for the land in the Gradual Interview

No, I do not believe that Middle Earth in any way influenced The Land, geographically speaking. Rather it highlighted the geographic/geopolitical elements needed for a fictitious, realistic, historically and culturally rich back drop for an extremely compelling fantasy series that, IMHO is second only to LOTR.

[peter]

I think this is a fantastic post Hyarmion.

Not only do I agree with the comparisons you make, but I believe that both the Land and Middle Earth are enriched thereby! The obvious relationships between the two places (the way you spell them out) serve to make both more than the are on thier own. I will confess to having a preference for the Land - there is a softness there that is somehow mising in Middle Earth which comes across as more austere - but I think your post will have gone some way to having evened the score.

Many thanks.

[SGuilfoyle1966]

Andelain, nor Landsdrop nor the Sarangrave

Umm, Andelain is a gently wooded land that almost makes you weep.
Just like Lothlorien. Position wise, both in the middle, a little to the east. Just a touch. Andelain a little more.

Sarangrave? A nasty swamp where things under the ground try to swallow you up?

What about the Dead Marshes? It's just as nasty.

Landsdrop? that's there. Not a straight-line continental divide. But the Emyn Muil thingee was kind of similar.

And there is notations in older works that the Valar raised the mountains around Mordor as a prison for the evil creatures therein. I think the northern mountains, not the western border ones. Name escape me.

[/quote]

[DrPaul]

I've thought for a while now that if Dostoyevsky had attempted to write TLOTR he'd end up writing something like The First Chronicles

[peter]

I've thought for a while now that if Dostoyevsky had attempted to write TLOTR he'd end up writing something like The First Chronicles

Should I then, read Dostoyevsky?

[Orlion]

You should read Crime and Punishment. There is little doubt in my mind that Raskolnikov helped inspire, at least partially, Thomas Covenant.

[peter]

You should read Crime and Punishment. There is little doubt in my mind that Raskolnikov helped inspire, at least partially, Thomas Covenant.

Not being funny, but is the book a good read for any reasons other than my interest in it as a template for TC. I mean it's a HEAVY book (in all sences of the word) and the time commitment it demands of you has to be balanced against it's 'entertainment' value as a read (bad way of putting it, but I hope you know what I mean). I know it's a Classic - but there are Classic's and classic's......... and Dostoyevsky has always conjured up images of tortured russians with long beards immured in dank and noisesome cells in my mind.

[Orlion]

I found it to be a very enjoyable and accessible read. I read one of the more recent translations ( Pevear and someone else) which was smooth as far as writing is concerned. It's also one of his shorter ones (about four hundred pages). I read it for a class, and everyone in it loved it.

I'd say give it a couple chapters, and if you don't get into it by then, you can set it aside untill you're ready.

[peter]

I found it to be a very enjoyable and accessible read. I read one of the more recent translations ( Pevear and someone else) which was smooth as far as writing is concerned. It's also one of his shorter ones (about four hundred pages). I read it for a class, and everyone in it loved it.

I'd say give it a couple chapters, and if you don't get into it by then, you can set it aside untill you're ready.

Thanks Orlion. Sounds good to me.

[jackgiantkiller]

ALL Blasphamy, you should be ashamed of yourselfs compairing TC to LOTR, you should not even be allowed to think that way, heratics,burn the lot

[High Lord Tolkien]

I may not be the first person to notice this, but has anyone ever noticed the similarities between the geography of the Land (before the Sunbane) and that of Tolkien's Middle-earth east of the Misty Mountains?

Consider, if we equate the Land's Westron Mountains with the Misty Mountains then Revelwood is Lothlorien (with some similarities), Garroting Deep is Fangorn Forest (with some very obvious similarities), Tolkien's great dark forest Mirkwood has been broken up to become both Grimmerdhorne and Morinmoss, Mount Thunder is the Lonely Mountain (Erebor), and Iron Hills have become Seareach (only populated with Giants rather than Dwarves, big people rather than little people), the Seas of Rhun and Nurnen, have been joined and expanded out to become an ocean. Melenkurion Skywier (a big mountain) is the Mountains of Moria, especially Caradhras, and the caverns under Melenkurion Skywier are the Mines of Moria. The similarities are further enhanced by a look at Pauline Bayne's illustrated map of Middle-earth, a copy of which can be viewed here. You will notice she has decorated the map with a picture of horses dancing in exactly the place where the Plains of Ra would be.

But wait, there's more: Kevin's Watch is Amon Hen (Tolkien's Hill of Sight), Mithil Stonedown is pretty much exactly where Minas Morgul would be. And the old name for Minas Morgul was Minas Ithil (it was the suspicious similarity between the names Mithil and Minas Ithil that got me thinking about all this). And more: Doriendor Corishev is Osgiliath (both ruined cities).

Following this scheme we see that Revelstone is Rivendell (definately some similarities) only moved to the other side of the mountains and made into a fortress city.

Yes, I know there are some things that don't fit, the rivers run the wrong way for a start. And Foul's Creche is little too far North to be equated with Sauron's Barad-dur. And the Land does have some original elements, there is nothing on Tolkien's or Bayne's maps to suggest Andelain, nor Landsdrop nor the Sarangrave.

Dude....


Still, fun is fun.

[Orlion]

To comment on the original post, I think you will always have similar geography if you're trying to create a self contained land where its conflicts won't necesarily spill outwards immediately and where random invasions from outside can complicate things.

[Relayer]

I've thought for a while now that if Dostoyevsky had attempted to write TLOTR he'd end up writing something like The First Chronicles

A couple of years ago a friend of mine, who'd read the first Chrons back in the day, described them to his wife as "imagine LOTR if it was written by Dostoyevsky"

[peter]

Isn't ther a theory somewhere that there are only 7 basic plotlines one of which is the 'Quest' novel. Perhaps in some way this spills over into 'imaginary topography'.

[Relayer]

You might be thinking along the lines of writers like Joseph Campbell who talk about archetypes in people and in stories... I'm not that familiar with his work (it's been years since I've read it) but the "Heroes Journey" comes to mind as one of the most basic. IIRC in many ways it's similar to the Quest concept.

I'd love to know what you were thinking of and what the 7 are.

[peter]

I'd love to know what you were thinking of and what the 7 are.

Ok Relayer - since you asked

The seven Archetypal themes which run through all storytelling are as follows:- 1) Overcoming the Monster, 2) Rags to Riches, 3) The Quest, 4) Voyage and Return, 5) Comedy, 6) Tragedy, 7) Rebirth.

I first encountered the idea in a book called "The Seven Basic Plots" by Christopher Booker but I believe it has been considered over time immemoriable probably first by the Greeks - though I am not sure that they nailed it down to 7 (7 again for all you chronicles numerologists out there!) as Booker did.

I think there is no problem with a given story encompasing more than one of the archetypal themes - I can see three or even four that would apply to the Chrons - but the more a story attempts to include I think, the harder a trick it is to pull off.

Still Relayer - now you are up to speed on the idea have fun seeing if you can disprove it, and above all, thanks for your interest

[Relayer]

Oh, I'm not looking to disprove it... I pretty much agree with the concept. Thanks!

[Vraith]

I'd love to know what you were thinking of and what the 7 are.

Ok Relayer - since you asked

The seven Archetypal themes which run through all storytelling are as follows:- 1) Overcoming the Monster, 2) Rags to Riches, 3) The Quest, 4) Voyage and Return, 5) Comedy, 6) Tragedy, 7) Rebirth.

I first encountered the idea in a book called "The Seven Basic Plots" by Christopher Booker but I believe it has been considered over time immemoriable probably first by the Greeks

Nah...this guy is confused...not that there aren't generic archtetypes, there probably are...but only in a generic way. But it's reductive. It's a skewed [misunderstood] Jungian model. It's an imposed structure, that admittedly may have some value/offer some insight, but like all such approaches basically misses the point, because it ignores the particularity. The value in the "universal" or "eternal" [or whatever you want to call them] isn't in the universality portion: it's in the portions that make it distinctive.
Oh...and Comedy and Tragedy aren't themes or plots or even subjects. They're basically sort of "meta-genres" within which the stories operate. [even then, half the time the only difference between the two is whether the main protagonists live or die at the end].
And IIRC [been a while] anything that doesn't fit the rules is basically bad writing, according to him.

[Orlion]

The guy forgot role-reversal...you know, heros become villians, villians become heros and so forth.