Hile Troy question

[caamora]

I just had a realization. Hile Troy was summoned to the Land by Atiaran by mistake. She burned to death during the summoning. And yet, Hile Troy was still in the Land.

My question: Why wasn't Hile Troy returned to our world when Atiaran died like TC was when all his summoners died?

[amanibhavam]

tricky question; right now I can think only of two possibilities:
- as he had been summoned by mistake, the summons were not "directed" at him, so technically he had not been summoned at all, just swept into the Land accidentally, a little bit like Linden later (if we accept the theory that Linden got there accidentally, that is)
- he should have died, but at that point he was already "meant" to become a Forestal, so his fate (or rather the Creator's will) did not let him go


Any thoughts?

[Skyweir]

I like that answer .. I think amy could be on to the actual reason ..

here is another side thought .. that we are beginning to explore on another thread .. maybe HT did die in our world .. and that death in our world is not necessarily indicative of death in the Land.

Atiaran did die in the summoning and she was attempting to summon TC not HT .. so it would seem he was acquired accidentally.

He yet existed in the Land .. and although Atiaran was incinerated in the HT's apartment fire .. we can only suspect HT also died .. or he maybe survived a considerable fall from an apartment building on fire. Which to me is less likely.

The interesting thing is that HT existed in the Land .. regardless ..

The Creator indicated that it could be possible for TC to exist in the Land even though his our world body died from an alergic reaction to anti-venin.

Yes that was a special circumsance .. but it was yet a possibility ..

Hile Troy existed in the Land beyond any mortal time frame expected in our world .. sure his existence changed from that of an inhabitant of the Land to that of a forrestal apprentice and ultimately to become the forrestal.

[amanibhavam]

I do not understand your statement that he existed in the Land beyond any mortal frame expected in our world - he surely existed only for some four thousand years or a little longer, which would correspond to some twelve years in the "real" world, as TC's example indicates

[danlo]

12 years hmmmm, interesting....could this mean he somehow survived the fall and was in a coma 4 that long? How far would the fall have been? What was it 6 or 3 stories? I can't remember right now...

[caamora]

I had never considered that HT died in the fall. And I do like the idea that the rule of returning to our world when the summoner died did not apply to HT because he was not the object of the summons. Very interesting. Please, do continue......

[danlo]

I always tought SRD described HT as hanging by his burnt fingertips off the last rung of the firescape and getting weaker. No one could have possibly rescued him...he must have fallen eventually...just how long did he hold on...did the earth's jarring impact open his eyes in the Land? I figure he was in a coma, or dying during the actual Illearth War--he's fighting for his own physical life as he fights against LF, but he knows he isn't winning. I argee that he probably died on our world at the very same time he was turned in2 a tree. Garroting Deep I always see as the "curtian of death", Troy breaks the viel, becomes a tree and his "earth soul", as it were, becomes one inside the tree with his "Land soul". A heavenly merger, beautifully done! Now do you see why I like SRD SO MUCH!!!!

[pitchwife]

Maybe the fact that Hile Troy was dying in the real world made it easier to make the transition to the land. I remember that the last time Covenant was summoned by Foamfollower, the fact that he was weak from venom, maybe even unconcious, made the summons possible.

So maybe it was just a coincidence, Atiaran didn't have enough lore to make the summons precise enough, reach Covenant, so her summons reached his soul as it was drifting away from his body...

And then maybe the fact that he was already dead in the real world enabled him to take Atiaran's place in the Land, like some kind of singularity point, in the logic of crossing between the dimensions.

-pitch

[amanibhavam]

so you yuggest that the level of consciousness in our world defines the easyness of being translated into the Land? interesting idea; think I'll start psychotic drugs...

[danlo]

I'm dying here Amy!!!! pardon the pun That's a gruesome, but very interesting and cool thought Pitch! So the second hits the ground Atirian dies? Do they both die at exactly the same time? Or is there any gap btween deaths...if so, what happens during that gap on the spiritual plane? According 2 what you are saying it seems that they would have 2 die at the same time, to coincide w/the time laws of our earth vs The Land. If there were any gap and Atirian dies 1st her soul must wander in limbo for a notable amt. of time-but if HT dies first Atrian's soul has already hit our reality? Was HT standing over Atirian's dead body in the Land the second he was summoned? Her "soul" or "earthself" died in the apartment at the same time her physical presence died in the Land? If you could "summon" yourself from the Land to our Earth wouldn't your real body have to be alive, at least for a split-second, in order for you to be aware of the apartment? WARNING: Thinking may cause brain damage!!!

[amanibhavam]

Hile Troy was blind, and valiant,
(though not an Italian)
he was in love with Elena,
that beautiful daughter of Lena,
but he shied away and married Mariann!

[danlo]

You almost tempted me 2 write a limerick, but...The way they drive in D.C. HT was probably toasted by a speeding Porche before he ever hit the ground!!!
p.s.: I always liked Marianne better than Ginger!

[Lord Mhoram]

Maybe the fact that Atiaran died while summoning HT allowed him to remain it the Land, and I think someone said this but he might have died in the fall. Im guessing people already said what I said but oh well

[Skyweir]

my point re HT's mortal time frame in the Land was that it exceeded the life expectancy of most inhabitants of the Land

to me the interesting point is that HT existed in the Land regardless of the state of his mortal body in our world.

I also agree it is less likely he survived the fall from the burning apartment building .. I like the analogy that Atiaran and HT switched existences/habitations as pitch suggested ..

And then maybe the fact that he was already dead in the real world enabled him to take Atiaran's place in the Land, like some kind of singularity point, in the logic of crossing between the dimensions

to me that makes sense .. but there is one anomaly with that supposition .. and that is that when HT reached the Land .. he came an independant existence to the dead Atiaran .. and presumably then in our world .. following the apartment fire .. atiaran - a jane doe - then was also added to the body count?? whether HT survived or not.

or maybe physical is different in the Land .. and our spiritual existence as we term it .. may be more of a physical presence in th Land.

But then if that is so .. and I always thought it was .. as always as TC was summoned to the Land .. his mortal tabernacle remained in our world ..

The thing I wonder about .. and that is .. if the Creator can promise TC health and a life in the Land regardless of the lack of a living breathing mortal body in our world .. then that creates a possibility doesnt it .. that life can exist from our world in the Land without the need for life in life in our world ..

mmm .. methinks danlo may be right .. brain damage might be an imminent consequence of tooo much thinking!!!!

ok I take my leave now ..

good thinking pitchwife .. a really good point!

[Dromond]

When the Creator offered TC a life in the land at the end of TPTP, he healed TC of his allergic reaction that would have killed him instead.(As TC OK'ed) Now couldn't the creator have arranged for TC to be in a coma For a few years had he accepted his offer of a life in the Land? Whenever TC was in the Land, he was never "mentally aware" in his real world state. And nowhere is Hile Troy officially dead in this world. My point being that I don't see evidence of The two being separate. It's only when dying inthe Land that the law of the Land takes hold, so to speak. I think I'll go now and read something less perplexing----War and Peace,maybe.

[Skyweir]

well that is never discussed is it? The Creator never indicated that he would survive the anti-venin but be for the rest of his life live the existence of a vegetable .. it is pretty much implied that TC has no hope of recovery except for the offer of the Creator .. 1. to live out the rest of his life in the Land .. or 2. a full and complete return to his own life and his own world ..

I dont recall an option 3. you will be comatose in your world while you have the time of your life in mine ..

And you are right .. kinda .. that there isnt really any evidence .. HT's case makes an interesting possible exception that along with the Creators offer could suggest that the two .. are not always necessarily dependant on each other .. ie:life in the Land is dependant upon life in our world ..

I would think it highly unlikely that HT would have 'survived' the apartment building fire which incinerated Atiaran .. though anything is possible .. and in which case his existence in the Land beyond his 'physical' existence in our world .. would suggest this exception to the generally accepted belief.

Or maybe HT is just an exception all round .. because he was summoned accidentally ..

But it remains that the Creator did make this offer of an existence in the Land .. presumably in the stead of his death in our world.

good to see you back Drummond.

[amanibhavam]

another question: might it be possible, that everybody in the Land has his/her parallel existence in our world? they just do not know it? I already theoreticized (sp?) on it that the Creator is an ordinary chap in this world but at the same time a God for another

[pitchwife]

Dromond,
You're right there is no evidence. Actually, Covenant tries to find Hile Troy in our world but he doesn't succeed. It is all left vague enough so you are intrigued and need to figure out what you beileve. That's why I like SRD so much, he gives you a lot of room for thought. And that's why I like Kevinswatch, cause everyone sees it from a little different perspective.
-pitch

[Skyweir]

pitch - .. right .. SRD does leave things vague yet covers his tracks enough to make a variety of possibilities plausible ..

its what I love about SRD too!!

amy - I like the idea that the Creator is an 'ordinary chap' in our world but a Creator to the people in the Land.

if everyone in the Land had their own parrallel personality in our world .. that could work .. but the population in this world is many times greater than the relatively small population in the Creator's 'earth'. That in and of itself doesn't provide any real problem but then do the rest of the inhabitants in this world have other alter-personalities in yet another world .. as there are too many in this world to be satisfied in the Land alone?

I think that when the little old bad breathed guy appeared to LA and earlier to TC he disappeared after his appearance without a trace .. and people in our world are not prone to such brief appearances and disappearances .. so this may suggest that he actually may have just taken upon him our physical form as a means of fulfilling the task at hand.

It doesnt seem workable that each personality in the Land have alter-existences in our world .. though indeed anything may be possible ..

[Dromond]

I greatly enjoy the discussions and arguements presented by all. I found a passage in WGW that I believe backs up my assertion that Hile Troy never died. (page 354) After Sunder drove the Krill into HT, TC embraces the charred remains of CC-HT and says,"From fire to fire, after all this time"..."I hope you've found a little peace." I don't think HT died until conditions matched his real world situation. (As was necessary for TC in each trip to the Land, and La also)