Marvel's Batman?

[sgt.null]

thought about this today - after reading a synopsis of marvel's Darklands treatment of Daredevil. does Marvel have a go-to Batguy? if not, why not? I will run down a few of the choices over the next few days. starting with the obvious...



Daredevil
the most obvious choice would be old Hornhead, but it never seemed to have happened and I blame Frank Miller. after his run on the book Marvel seemed stuck. it was the most well received of any treatment and it set up the whole, Elektra, Kingpin, Bullseye, ninja trope that still exists today.

Batman changed with the times - it seemed that Dadredevil can't.

he seems to have it all - a great setting in Hell's Kitchen. a super power that isn't over the top and lends itself to creative ideas. some villains ( Bullseye, Death-Stalker, Gladiator, Eel, Jester, Man-Bull, Matador, Mister Fear, Mister Hyde) that could easily be revamped, or toned down in Bullseye's case. some fellow heroes that work on his level (El Aguila, American Eagle, Paladin) and a job that could launch many story ideas.

also add in Black Widow and Dakota North as possible love interests.

instead we get more Kingpin, more Bullseye, more ninjas.

other thoughts on Daredevil?

[sgt.null]

Moon Knight

well kind of a ringer - since he was supposed to be marvel's Batman.

so what went wrong?



I would say that the writers seem to change their minds about who he is. I loved the beer swilling Moon Knight that appeared in the Defenders. I liked the man with three identities that showed up in his own series.

I did not like the superhero Fist of Khonshu - and I hated bringing adamantium into the picture.

go ahead and do the supernatural version. bring in Werewolf by Night. Have Moon Knight fight the Night Shift. they would act as his rogue's gallery.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Shift_(comics)

Dr. Strange, Brother Voodoo, Night Nurse - marvel has a deep reserve that could be showcased.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I always had a soft spot For Moon Knight.
No one really did anything with him though.
I liked the White Tiger too, I must like white costumes or something.

Best idea with MK was having his strength wax and wane with the Moon.

Otherwise he was so much like Batman it was painful.

[Creator]

In the Marvel / DC cross-over, didn't they match up Captain America with Batman?

What about him?

[Fist and Faith]

Shouldn't have been close. Cap is far stronger and faster than Batman. As Cap is far stronger and faster than DD and Iron Fist, and Deathstroke is than Nightwing. Same situation. Shouldn't have been a close fight. Cap and Deathstroke would be good, though.

There was a Batman/DD comic. Perhaps not entirely memorable, though, since, although I have it, I really don't remember much.

[sgt.null]

to qualify it would have to be a character with minimal super powers. that is why Spider Man isn't up for consideration.

HLT - I actually plan to cover White Tiger / Sons of the Tiger.

and Cap would mop the floor with Batman.

[dANdeLION]

I wonder how much DD you've actually read. First off, what's Darkland? Do you mean Shadowland? I see you've edited it out of your post, so maybe someone else mentioned this to you already. Miller's run of DD was absolutely a MAJOR change for the character. I've read every issue of DD (except #3) at one point or another, and I have to say Daredevil 158-191 & 227-233 are the cream of the crop. There have been other times later on that Marvel has tried to alter the character, but it always comes back to Miller's version because Miller got it so right. It's not Miller's fault he was so good that most post-Miller DD writers copy from him (and yes, I'm tired of the ninjas, too).

As for Marvel having a Batman-type character; they don't have one, and I'm glad. I think one Batman is plenty (okay, Moon Knight is clearly their Batman copy, but he's not a major character, so I ignore him). That being said, I think Iron Man has more in common with Batman than DD does; Both Stark and Wayne are billionaire businessmen, have no super-powers whatsoever, and utilize hundreds of cuttinging-edge gizmos when fighTing crime. Both have 'died', been paralyzed, and had other people replace them as Barman and Iron man, respectively. Both have been part of (and leaders of) their respective super-teams, and both have forged tight bonds with their government crime-fighting forces (Batman with the Gotham PD, Iron man with S.H.I.E.L.D.)

[sgt.null]

___ - the problem i have with iron Man is that he should be able to defeat anybody. without really breaking a sweat. anyone less than the Crimson Dynamo should be beneath him. so where do you go from there? keep amping the danger until you have the Morrison run of JLA? a fun read but even Grant ran out of ideas.

as to Daredevil, Marvel needs to hire a visionary writer for the book - someone who can jettison Kingpin and the damned ninjas. I liked the run recently where Matt's identity cam eout - some really creative stuff. but it seems we are always just a few months from a rehashing of the Miller stuff. I love the character and will be checking out the Shadowland's stuff.

I don't recall mentioning the Shadowlands before btw. all I did was add the pic.

what I really want is Murdock to hang out with Black Widow, Mockingbird and El Aguila. kind of an updated Marvel-Two-In-One.

[dANdeLION]

thought about this today - after reading a synopsis of marvel's Darklands treatment of Daredevil.

what's Darkland? Do you mean Shadowland?

I don't recall mentioning the Shadowlands before btw.

You mentioned Darklands. I asked you what that means.

[sgt.null]

thought about this today - after reading a synopsis of marvel's Darklands treatment of Daredevil.

what's Darkland? Do you mean Shadowland?

I don't recall mentioning the Shadowlands before btw.

You mentioned Darklands. I asked you what that means.

it means i should pay closer attention.

i thumbed through a couple issues at Hastings - and my feeling was meh. nothing grabbed my attention. looking for the return of Luke Cage's lame villains. that might be some fun.

[aTOMiC]

___ - the problem i have with iron Man is that he should be able to defeat anybody. without really breaking a sweat. anyone less than the Crimson Dynamo should be beneath him. so where do you go from there? keep amping the danger until you have the Morrison run of JLA? a fun read but even Grant ran out of ideas.

I don't agree at all. Maybe I'm more invested in IM than most folks but from my perspective the character is painfully flawed in so many areas that it makes him vulnerable to just about anyone depending upon the circumstances. When IM is on his game he's pretty "invincible" however there are a galaxy of super beings on the next level (Thor, Galactus, The Hulk, Superman etc) that IM would need a special suit of armor or lots of help to hang in a fair fight.
Both Iron man and Batman each have one stunning Achilles heal.
If an antagonist knows their true identity (in Iron man's case everyone knows) all someone has to do is use a sniper rifle on Tony Stark/Bruce Wayne and blam! (This tactic will work very effectively on Daredevil as well even with radar sense. Modern sniper ranges are pretty impressive.) That kind of approach won't work with the vast majority of super heroes. Shooting someone like Wolverine in the head as he walks up the steps to the nearest courthouse will give him a short term headache but no permanent damage.
Because of this fact there is always a bit of tension regarding IM/BM's health.

[sgt.null]

tom - does everyone still know Tony's identity? it has been revealed and wiped before.

i agree that Thor, Hercules, etc are harder to beat - and the Hulk even more so.

this points to that Iron Man needs a villain upgrade. Whiplash, Blizzard, Spymaster, etc all seem lackluster.

I do love me some Red Ghost though.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iron_Man_enemies

[aTOMiC]

tom - does everyone still know Tony's identity? it has been revealed and wiped before.

i agree that Thor, Hercules, etc are harder to beat - and the Hulk even more so.

this points to that Iron Man needs a villain upgrade. Whiplash, Blizzard, Spymaster, etc all seem lackluster.

I do love me some Red Ghost though.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iron_Man_enemies

I agree that many of IM's opponents from the past can seem fairly "second rate" and for the most part they are but when they were first encountered they did indeed pose a credible threat. Consider that the Blizzard could effectively freeze the man inside the armor and in one encounter involving super hard ice darts the armor was sliced open making for a genuine deadly hazzard. Of course IM eventually found a way to win, and these days probably has many ways to counteract the effects of deep cold on his armor.
Whiplash almost always had the ability to penetrate IM's armor which in many ways makes him very dangerous and was very effectively demonstrated in Iron Man 2. However IM is the protagonist and will win nearly every battle simply because he needs to be around for the next issue. Almost all heroes benefit from being the star of their own comics/movies. Even death itself cannot prevent a popular hero from being raised from the grave.

BTW I too liked the Red Ghost and his super apes.
The Controller has been a particularly tough cookie and quite creepy in the way he uses a host of normal folks, kidnapped off the street, to give him strength. Nemesis like Ultimo, Fin Fang Foom and of course the Mandarin would be a huge threat to virtually anyone.

[sgt.null]

I always found the Mandarin to be too general of a threat. not really sure what his motivation really was. conquering the wolrd does not do it for me. does he still have the rings?

the Controller is a great character when used correctly, I remember him controlling Namor one time. letting him control some heroes would make for a challenge for IM.

seems that if FIn showed up, the AVngers would be more likely to deal with him.

I think that Blizzard was best handled in Thunderbolts a guy trying to reform. I also liked Speed Demon there.

I like the idea of a Red Ghost/Ghost team up.

isn't Blacklash dead?

do not know Ultimo - need to study up on him.

[danlo]

God of comics!!!

[sgt.null]

I love this character. though purple is an odd choice. very mysterious background, we don't even know his name. so lots of space for a writer to fill in. and then the whole reveal can be expunged. (they can say Paladin was using a cover)

has interacted with many characters in the marvel universe.

has some borderline superhuman strength, agility, dexterity, etc. but not so much that it couldn't be explained away as a gadget.

like i said, love the character.

[dANdeLION]

I think Marvel originally intended to name him the Purple Paladin, henceforth the costume color.

[sgt.null]

El Aquila is a modern day Zorro. a mutant with an electrical discharge, he lost his powers during M-Day.

A colorful hero, a sword-fighting expert. getting a sword that discharges electricity from Tony Stark (or someone equally as clever) shouldn't be a proble. or just repower him.

team him with another Conquistador, newly discovered living among us.

have them fight the Matadors, a group based on the Daredevil villain. have them controlling Man-Bull.

El Aguila has worked with Daredevil, Heroes for Hire, the Penance group. so you could any of their related villains. (I would love to see Mr.Fish featured)

a flamboyant, attention seeking hero - a nice remedy to all the grim and gritty heroes currently occupying the shelves. and a place for minority heroes and villains to show up. the Falcon, etc...