Nick and Enablement Station

[Barnetto]

This may have been explained in the text, but if so I've forgotten/missed it....

.... but how did Nick get away from Enablement Station after the Amnion gave him a mutagen?

I know this predates the Gap Series plot itself but it is obviously crucial to what happens later when he takes Morn there. OK he had an antimutagen that he was secretly testing, but why on earth would the Amnion give him a mutagen and then just let him leave without seeing if he turned into an Amnioni?

[Vraith]

It's been a while...but I think they [amnion] didn't expect him to change right away. They wanted him to change after he left, and had no reason to think he wouldn't.
I think.

[Barnetto]

But other humans who are given a mutagen appear to transform relatively rapidly (I think - Sib Mackern's ships crew, Milos etc). I can't recall any specific timings but I got the impression that it started happening pretty quickly. Which would have required them to inject him and then let him leave immediately.

Also, the Amnion are researching how to achieve a transformation that leaves as much human appearance behind as possible - so why would they let Nick go without seeing the effect of the mutagen on him?

I'll try and dig out my copy of FK tonight and see if I can find anything more concrete.

[Orlion]

Keep in mind, the Amnion wanted human looking carriers as a sort of Trojan Horse. They also try to be very efficient and logical. If it worked, Nick would be under their sway completly, and he could start wrecking havoc among the humans. If not, will, no harm done.

[Barnetto]

I'll try and answer my own question after a bit of rereading - there is no answer in the text I can find, but there is enough of a hint.

Remember that Nick was particularly specific in the terms of his deal with the Amnion involving Morn, his blood and force growing Davies. There is no reason why he wouldn't have been equally specific the first time. He could have said, "You pay me X, then I will submit to being injected with your mutagen and you will let me leave with my ship immediately".

As you say, the Amnion would assume that the mutagen would work and Nick would turn to their side (if not killed) and indeed the text contains a hint that they expected to get the ship and their credits back in short order. A no risk deal from their perspective (unless Nick got killed).

(However, in thinking about this issue, it has raised another that didn't occur to me when I read the books. Trade with the Amnion is based on credits ie virtual cash. But all this trade is illegal - there is no mutual banking system between humans and Amnion. No illegal is simply going to accept "credits" issued by the Amnion that no human settlement will accept. I know that Billingate would have accepted the credit jack they gave Nick in normal circumstances, but to make trade work the Amnion would have had to provide a currency that could be used throughout human space (ie human currency). I can't see a realistic way that could have worked. The illegal trade it seems was based on ore for credits/biotechnology. Whilst it is possible that the Amnion would have accepted credits in payment for some biotech, there is no suggestion that there was enough credits going in that direction to make the system work. There would have had to be a system of the Amnion issuing credits, but how!

Money is a funny thing - it only "works" because everyone buys into the fiction that it is worth something. Amnion issuing human credits is a bit like the Bank of Papua New Guinea issuing pounds sterling... )

[ItisWritten]

Perhaps the mutagen they "tested" on Nick was a version of the blackmail type they used on Sorus? They might even have informed Nick that he would need the anitdote from them. When he didn't return to do their bidding, they would assume he mutated and was killed. Returning as he did gave them the question they needed answered.

[Barnetto]

Perhaps the mutagen they "tested" on Nick was a version of the blackmail type they used on Sorus? They might even have informed Nick that he would need the anitdote from them. When he didn't return to do their bidding, they would assume he mutated and was killed. Returning as he did gave them the question they needed answered.

I don't think so - it would rather lose its value as a blackmail mutagen if they just let him leave, weren't making any specific demands on him and weren't there to supply the antidote to keep him onside.

They were clearly shocked and disbelieving at his return in human form. As you say, having allowed him to leave, they would either have assumed he would have mutated and contacted them (as required by his new genetic behaviour) or mutated and been killed by the humans on the ship. Clearly they were hoping for the former when he would have returned with his ship and the credits they'd paid him.

My original question was really aimed at why on earth they would have let him leave having given him a mutagen (given their desire to test and refine). But I've concluded to my own satisfaction that it would most likely simply have been as a result of Nick carefully setting out the conditions under which he was willing to be injected (including immediate departure). The Amnion do not welsh on bargains... though they do their best to comply with them to the letter rather than the spirit on occasions....

[Orlion]

Good point on the bargain aspect. As far as credits, the Amnion do have a way with human-made machines (they taught Angus how to erase the datacore) it's not unfeasable for them to be able to produce credits out of the air. Also, they may at times accept credits to later use as payment for contracts. It's also important to understand that all the bargaining the Amnion do is probably for the strict purpose of assimilating humanity.

[Vraith]

I don't see the problem, really...obviously "the Bill" has a relationship with the Amnion, and a banking operation of some sort...currency exchange isn't really a problem, especially when it's just data to begin with [I don't recall any actual cash anywhere].

[Barnetto]

Good point on the bargain aspect. As far as credits, the Amnion do have a way with human-made machines (they taught Angus how to erase the datacore) it's not unfeasable for them to be able to produce credits out of the air. Also, they may at times accept credits to later use as payment for contracts. It's also important to understand that all the bargaining the Amnion do is probably for the strict purpose of assimilating humanity.

They may have received some credits from humans buying biotech, but the implications are that this would have been far outweighed by trade in ore going the other way. So whilst there may have been some credits in the form of "bearer instruments" (ie cash) that doesn't deal with the bigger issue.

Producing "credits out of thin air" would have been a great way to bring down human civilization in fairly short order. As soon as the faith and value in money/credits has gone by the Amnion producing and distributing enough of them, rampant inflation takes over, no one wants the stuff, the basis of most human commercial interactions are gone etc etc

I'm not looking to labour the point, I didn't even note it while reading the book and you can't expect an author to deal with every single aspect of a hypothetical future. Just raised it as a curiosity.

[Orlion]

Good point on the bargain aspect. As far as credits, the Amnion do have a way with human-made machines (they taught Angus how to erase the datacore) it's not unfeasable for them to be able to produce credits out of the air. Also, they may at times accept credits to later use as payment for contracts. It's also important to understand that all the bargaining the Amnion do is probably for the strict purpose of assimilating humanity.

They may have received some credits from humans buying biotech, but the implications are that this would have been far outweighed by trade in ore going the other way. So whilst there may have been some credits in the form of "bearer instruments" (ie cash) that doesn't deal with the bigger issue.

Producing "credits out of thin air" would have been a great way to bring down human civilization in fairly short order. As soon as the faith and value in money/credits has gone by the Amnion producing and distributing enough of them, rampant inflation takes over, no one wants the stuff, the basis of most human commercial interactions are gone etc etc

I'm not looking to labour the point, I didn't even note it while reading the book and you can't expect an author to deal with every single aspect of a hypothetical future. Just raised it as a curiosity.

Then permit me to offet this explanation: maybe the Bill pays a sort of rent (like protection money) that the Amnion then use, hence why they don't mutate everyone there.

[Barnetto]

I don't see the problem, really...obviously "the Bill" has a relationship with the Amnion, and a banking operation of some sort...currency exchange isn't really a problem, especially when it's just data to begin with [I don't recall any actual cash anywhere].

But there isn't any suggestion that (a) trade is limited to Billingate in any way and (b) the credits are only to be used there or are in any way special to Billingate.

The idea appears to be that "credits" are a universal currency (doesn't need to be cash, but the "credit jack" certainly appears to operate as cash ie a bearer instrument) and so can be used throughout human space.

The problem is that if the Amnion are just essentially printing cash / creating electronic credits out of thin air, then the whole financial system of human space could go to pot (if there is enough such trade). Clearly legal human space isn't going to have any sort of banking relationship with the Amnion. I agree that the Bill could do, however, but as I say I don't see any suggestion that the credits are anything special limited to the Bill/Billingate.

[Barnetto]

Then permit me to offet this explanation: maybe the Bill pays a sort of rent (like protection money) that the Amnion then use, hence why they don't mutate everyone there.

Maybe, but the textual suggestion is that the Amnion simply allow Billingate to be there for the benefit in illegal trade that it brings them. I can't see them leasing the space for credits personally.

[ItisWritten]

Perhaps the mutagen they "tested" on Nick was a version of the blackmail type they used on Sorus? They might even have informed Nick that he would need the anitdote from them. When he didn't return to do their bidding, they would assume he mutated and was killed. Returning as he did gave them the question they needed answered.

I don't think so - it would rather lose its value as a blackmail mutagen if they just let him leave, weren't making any specific demands on him and weren't there to supply the antidote to keep him onside.

They were clearly shocked and disbelieving at his return in human form. As you say, having allowed him to leave, they would either have assumed he would have mutated and contacted them (as required by his new genetic behaviour) or mutated and been killed by the humans on the ship. Clearly they were hoping for the former when he would have returned with his ship and the credits they'd paid him.

My original question was really aimed at why on earth they would have let him leave having given him a mutagen (given their desire to test and refine). But I've concluded to my own satisfaction that it would most likely simply have been as a result of Nick carefully setting out the conditions under which he was willing to be injected (including immediate departure). The Amnion do not welsh on bargains... though they do their best to comply with them to the letter rather than the spirit on occasions....

There was a difference between Sorus and Nick's situations. Sorus was stranded, at their mercy. She was given the choice of repairs and service, or death. Nick came to them offering trade.

Because they understood the value of honoring their deals, they must let him leave. Even if they expected him to come crawling back for an antidote or contact them as a mutated Nick, the deal came first.

[ItisWritten]

Then permit me to offet this explanation: maybe the Bill pays a sort of rent (like protection money) that the Amnion then use, hence why they don't mutate everyone there.

Maybe, but the textual suggestion is that the Amnion simply allow Billingate to be there for the benefit in illegal trade that it brings them. I can't see them leasing the space for credits personally.

You're assuming the Amnion gave a damn about the rock that was Thanatos Minor. What the Bill would offer is the means for them to obtain human currency for their own deals. Sure the human trafficking that went on was valid currency for the Amnion, but mercenaries and illegals require credit/cash.

[Barnetto]

There was a difference between Sorus and Nick's situations. Sorus was stranded, at their mercy. She was given the choice of repairs and service, or death. Nick came to them offering trade.

True, but I don't see your point? The point I was making was that there was no point giving Nick the temporary non-acting mutagen rather than the full one. The only point of the temporary one is blackmail and as you point out, Nick wasn't in a blackmail situation.

Because they understood the value of honoring their deals, they must let him leave. Even if they expected him to come crawling back for an antidote or contact them as a mutated Nick, the deal came first.

Yes, IF that was the deal. There isn't anything in the text to say such a deal existed (as far as I can see). I'm extrapolating on the text by suggesting that as an answer to my own query.

[Barnetto]

You're assuming the Amnion gave a damn about the rock that was Thanatos Minor. What the Bill would offer is the means for them to obtain human currency for their own deals. Sure the human trafficking that went on was valid currency for the Amnion, but mercenaries and illegals require credit/cash

Well, certainly I'm assuming that they had a good reason for allowing it to exist in Forbidden Space contrary to the treaties with humanity. And I think it is pretty clear that that reason is the access to beneficial and illegal trade it gives them.

And absolutely I agree that the human mercenaries and illegals (primarily) wanted credits/cash.

But I can't see anything in the circumstances that suggests that Billingate is there to provide credits to the Amnion to fund the other illegal trade. Billingate is there as a convenient trading post. The Amnion would likely drive it away if they chose to impose harsh tariffs on its existence and they don't want to drive it away when it facilitates their other trade in ore etc. Billingate itself is going to have to make piles of cash/credits to run as a centre (all those guards, monitoring devices etc)

I'm afraid I just can't see the credit/cash movement circle that you are proposing: ie Billingate pays Amnion credits to lease space - Amnion pay mercenaries credits for ore etc - mercenaries pay Billingate credits for facilities etc. Billingate is going to be out of pocket given all its other expenditure.

Sorry, I just can't accept that in the context of the Gap Books, the Amnion were acquiring sufficient credits from other sources (Billingate, selling biotech) to fund their trade with illegals (ore, people etc). It just doesn't seem to fit for me.

I would rather just accept that there is what I see as a minor issue (nitpick) with the futuristic world set up by Donaldson and simply ignore it as unimportant.