Question about Elena

[RantAbsolain]

Did I miss something in the Last Chronicles that would explain Elena's current state of mind?

She seemed OK as one of the Dead appearing before Covenant in the Second Chronicles - she was aware that Covenant had avenged her by reducing Lord Foul to near-nothingness. At the end of the SC, not only does Elena see Foul defeated again, her expectation that Linden will "heal us all" is presumably fulfilled by Linden in her last act in the Land.

So why is dead Elena such a mess now? Lost in grief, unable to utter a word, subject to the orders of dead Sunder and Hollian - two Stonedowners who never had the lore or learning she had. She didn't seem that distraught over breaking the Law of Death in the Second Chronicles, surely she can't be that broken up over it now, since it permitted the ur-viles to give Vain to Covenant and permitted Covenant to conquer Lord Foul again.

[rdhopeca]

Did I miss something in the Last Chronicles that would explain Elena's current state of mind?

She seemed OK as one of the Dead appearing before Covenant in the Second Chronicles - she was aware that Covenant had avenged her by reducing Lord Foul to near-nothingness. At the end of the SC, not only does Elena see Foul defeated again, her expectation that Linden will "heal us all" is presumably fulfilled by Linden in her last act in the Land.

So why is dead Elena such a mess now? Lost in grief, unable to utter a word, subject to the orders of dead Sunder and Hollian - two Stonedowners who never had the lore or learning she had. She didn't seem that distraught over breaking the Law of Death in the Second Chronicles, surely she can't be that broken up over it now, since it permitted the ur-viles to give Vain to Covenant and permitted Covenant to conquer Lord Foul again.

I think a couple of things...

1) it's her fault that the resurrection of TC is possible, even perhaps necessary
2) it appears as though others, in particular CaerCaveral, aren't too fond of her right now
3) the victory of the 2nd chronicles has led to even dire straights
4) I think she *knows* that the moment Linden doesn't forgive her, she's going to be fed to the Bane. I think she volunteered and went willingly, and was not ordered.

[Borillar]

I'm not sure where I saw this idea, but it was my impression that the Dead that show up at the end of Fatal Revenant are Linden's Dead, not Covenant's Dead. As such, Elena appears to Linden the way that Linden imagines her.

[aliantha]

That would make sense. She's the one calling them.

[RantAbsolain]

I'm not sure where I saw this idea, but it was my impression that the Dead that show up at the end of Fatal Revenant are Linden's Dead, not Covenant's Dead. As such, Elena appears to Linden the way that Linden imagines her.

But Elena isn't one of Linden's Dead, is she? The only time Linden ever saw her was when she walked in on Covenant with his Dead, and presumably she'd have no need to imagine Elena's appearance due to this encounter.

Or do the Dead appear differently to each person based on what they expect to see?

[Borillar]

But Elena isn't one of Linden's Dead, is she? The only time Linden ever saw her was when she walked in on Covenant with his Dead, and presumably she'd have no need to imagine Elena's appearance due to this encounter.

She's seen her once but also heard a ton about her from Covenant.

Or do the Dead appear differently to each person based on what they expect to see?

That was my impression, yes.

[Orlion]

In either case, they all were important to Linden's development. They are the dead that have influenced her through there actions, even if she didn't meet some of them while they were alive.

Elena in particular is interesting in that Linden feels that they share a stronger connection then anyone else... and I think she's right. They both got an idea in their head that they believed would fix things, pursued it relentlessly and messed things up once they accomplished it. However, as much evil as was accomplished, one needs to remember that good also came from their actions (or will, in Linden's case). However, they both seem to deny this and only see the suffering they've caused, and that's what's really eating them... well, until Minnie gets a hold of them, anyway

[Ur Dead]

4) I think she *knows* that the moment Linden doesn't forgive her, she's going to be fed to the Bane. I think she volunteered and went willingly, and was not ordered.

I can't buy that part..

It was Caer Caveral who broke the law that allowed the dead to be raised, Elena broke the Law where the dead can interact in the world.

The part where she is summoned by Sunder and Hollian, I get the feeling that they knew what was going to happen.

"Sunder: "This is too much for us to handle.. we need someone more lorewise"
Hollian: "Lets gets Elena.. she'll do anything we tell her!"
Sunder: "Calling Elena.. report to the upper level of the Lost Deep for woe, screams and lore duties to bully ugly creature with many faces threating your father.. .Calling Elena!"
Hollian: "Here she comes"

*pop* ..*pop*

Elena:Boo!! .. yallow.. narf..narf..

SHE: FOOD!! YUM YUM!

Elena : OooooHHHH Sssshhhheeeeettttt!!! Sorry can't stay. <Feet don't fail me now!>

SHE :: YUM................. Burp!


Sunder and Hollian are definitely OFF my Christmas list.

[rdhopeca]

4) I think she *knows* that the moment Linden doesn't forgive her, she's going to be fed to the Bane. I think she volunteered and went willingly, and was not ordered.

I can't buy that part..

It was Caer Caveral who broke the law that allowed the dead to be raised, Elena broke the Law where the dead can interact in the world.

The part where she is summoned by Sunder and Hollian, I get the feeling that they knew what was going to happen.

"Sunder: "This is too much for us to handle.. we need someone more lorewise"
Hollian: "Lets gets Elena.. she'll do anything we tell her!"
Sunder: "Calling Elena.. report to the upper level of the Lost Deep for woe, screams and lore duties to bully ugly creature with many faces threating your father.. .Calling Elena!"
Hollian: "Here she comes"

*pop* ..*pop*

Elena:Boo!! .. yallow.. narf..narf..

SHE: FOOD!! YUM YUM!

Elena : OooooHHHH Sssshhhheeeeettttt!!! Sorry can't stay. <Feet don't fail me now!>

SHE :: YUM................. Burp!


Sunder and Hollian are definitely OFF my Christmas list.

Covenant did say Elena made a choice to involve herself when he was talking with Marthiir about it. And given what the Dead know about the future, I doubt that she didn't have some idea of what was to come.

[RantAbsolain]

4) I think she *knows* that the moment Linden doesn't forgive her, she's going to be fed to the Bane. I think she volunteered and went willingly, and was not ordered.

I can't buy that part..

It was Caer Caveral who broke the law that allowed the dead to be raised, Elena broke the Law where the dead can interact in the world.

The part where she is summoned by Sunder and Hollian, I get the feeling that they knew what was going to happen.

"Sunder: "This is too much for us to handle.. we need someone more lorewise"
Hollian: "Lets gets Elena.. she'll do anything we tell her!"
Sunder: "Calling Elena.. report to the upper level of the Lost Deep for woe, screams and lore duties to bully ugly creature with many faces threating your father.. .Calling Elena!"
Hollian: "Here she comes"

*pop* ..*pop*

Elena:Boo!! .. yallow.. narf..narf..

SHE: FOOD!! YUM YUM!

Elena : OooooHHHH Sssshhhheeeeettttt!!! Sorry can't stay. <Feet don't fail me now!>

SHE :: YUM................. Burp!


Sunder and Hollian are definitely OFF my Christmas list.

Covenant did say Elena made a choice to involve herself when he was talking with Marthiir about it. And given what the Dead know about the future, I doubt that she didn't have some idea of what was to come.

I guess I pretty much agree with Marthiir's assessment of Covenant's dealings with his daughter. The woman didn't have a particularly happy life and her afterlife has been a carnival of subjugation by evils on a cosmic scale. The amount of suffering this character has undergone just seems gratuitous at this point - her unhappy shade is summoned and tossed to the gibbering horror Linden and Co. have stirred up so they can make their getaway.

I posted the original question because I was somewhat baffled by what seemed like the retconning of Elena's state of mind in the afterlife. I'm not sure I buy the idea that her "Last Chronicles" nervous breakdown is simply how Linden perceives her. After reading back for an explanation and asking here, I think she's just written this way now to make her seem more abject and amplify her victimization. And generating poignancy and emotion through the victimization of women isn't just cheap - it's been done to death in books, TV, the movies...

I enjoyed the book as a whole, but Elena's story was just needless.

I really hope TLD will prove me wrong and provide some better explanations. Most of the parents I know would never be capable of letting their child get thrown like a piece of baloney to a rabid pit-bull so they could run away. And does Covenant really have nothing more to say to Roger, the young son whose entire life has obviously been one long slide into insanity?

[aliantha]

Re Covenant not saying more to Roger: Roger's not listening, so what's the point?

I don't think Elena's story was needless at all. I think this is going to be her way of atoning for the evil she committed in life -- by somehow leading the women inside the bane, and convincing them to release Kevin's Dirt.

And Elena could end up being an object lesson for Linden on how someone who's unforgiven in real life can still do good works afterward. That's not a bad lesson for Linden to learn, given that she's not going back to her old life at Berenford Memorial.

[rdhopeca]

I can't buy that part..

It was Caer Caveral who broke the law that allowed the dead to be raised, Elena broke the Law where the dead can interact in the world.

The part where she is summoned by Sunder and Hollian, I get the feeling that they knew what was going to happen.

"Sunder: "This is too much for us to handle.. we need someone more lorewise"
Hollian: "Lets gets Elena.. she'll do anything we tell her!"
Sunder: "Calling Elena.. report to the upper level of the Lost Deep for woe, screams and lore duties to bully ugly creature with many faces threating your father.. .Calling Elena!"
Hollian: "Here she comes"

*pop* ..*pop*

Elena:Boo!! .. yallow.. narf..narf..

SHE: FOOD!! YUM YUM!

Elena : OooooHHHH Sssshhhheeeeettttt!!! Sorry can't stay. <Feet don't fail me now!>

SHE :: YUM................. Burp!


Sunder and Hollian are definitely OFF my Christmas list.

Covenant did say Elena made a choice to involve herself when he was talking with Marthiir about it. And given what the Dead know about the future, I doubt that she didn't have some idea of what was to come.

I guess I pretty much agree with Marthiir's assessment of Covenant's dealings with his daughter. The woman didn't have a particularly happy life and her afterlife has been a carnival of subjugation by evils on a cosmic scale. The amount of suffering this character has undergone just seems gratuitous at this point - her unhappy shade is summoned and tossed to the gibbering horror Linden and Co. have stirred up so they can make their getaway.

I posted the original question because I was somewhat baffled by what seemed like the retconning of Elena's state of mind in the afterlife. I'm not sure I buy the idea that her "Last Chronicles" nervous breakdown is simply how Linden perceives her. After reading back for an explanation and asking here, I think she's just written this way now to make her seem more abject and amplify her victimization. And generating poignancy and emotion through the victimization of women isn't just cheap - it's been done to death in books, TV, the movies...

I enjoyed the book as a whole, but Elena's story was just needless.

I really hope TLD will prove me wrong and provide some better explanations. Most of the parents I know would never be capable of letting their child get thrown like a piece of baloney to a rabid pit-bull so they could run away. And does Covenant really have nothing more to say to Roger, the young son whose entire life has obviously been one long slide into insanity?

From my vantage point, Marthiir backed off his assessment of the situation once he realized that Elena had made her choices herself. He was all about blaming TC but then realized he was mistaken...

[RantAbsolain]

From my vantage point, Marthiir backed off his assessment of the situation once he realized that Elena had made her choices herself. He was all about blaming TC but then realized he was mistaken...

Yes, you're right - going back, Marthiir's accusations were wrong or at least only indirectly right. My problem there was with Covenant's response or lack of response to what happened to his daughter.

[Vraith]

Even if nothing else results from Elena's act, [which I'm on the fence about right now], still it's an attempt at redemption on her part.
And it seems to me any earlier gestures of forgiveness would make it more likely she'd go to any length to help, not less.
As for the lack of response...I think it very likely that both TC and Elena already knew long ago that it might come to this.

[Orlion]

From my vantage point, Marthiir backed off his assessment of the situation once he realized that Elena had made her choices herself. He was all about blaming TC but then realized he was mistaken...

Yes, you're right - going back, Marthiir's accusations were wrong or at least only indirectly right. My problem there was with Covenant's response or lack of response to what happened to his daughter.

Covenant (and a lot of people for that matter) try not to dwell on things that are particularly horrifying... it disables a person. I mean, how long into LFB before Covenant actually reacted to the fact that he raped Lena?

[Ur Dead]

Well...

Adds to list:


Linden - didn't console Elena when a "gift" was allow to be given.
(makes me want to join THOOLAH)

TC.. - his reaction never came close to the remorse he felt in IEW.
(maybe he still in shock or his fragmented mind can't fire the behavior)

Anele : because his name is the backwards of Elena and he isn't as strong and as his parents lead others to believe. When the times gets rough, he hides behind his insanity and gets possesed. And he eats alot.
(at least Linden got going and tried-/lessens impact of joining THOOLAH)

Definitely off my Christmas list..

[Revan]

Here's another question about Elena - If she was your daughter, would you?

I would.

[aliantha]

From my vantage point, Marthiir backed off his assessment of the situation once he realized that Elena had made her choices herself. He was all about blaming TC but then realized he was mistaken...

Yes, you're right - going back, Marthiir's accusations were wrong or at least only indirectly right. My problem there was with Covenant's response or lack of response to what happened to his daughter.

Covenant was grieving. He couldn't speak about her -- he choked up.

[johnsomc]

Of course we are all driven to speculate here - but I am trying to reserve judgment on the Elena issue FOR ANOTHER THREE YEARS!!! (Damn you, SRD...)

My guess is, the Bane will somehow be Elena's redemption, and the Land's Dead, since they can now interact, are in a sense fighting their own war against despite, despair, and destruction. In a sense, this is thematically appropriate: the entire Last Chronicles deals with the importance of the Land's past in defining what the Land IS. If this is the "Final Conflict" (cue the music), then everyone gets in on the action, and, I hope, everyone gets to find peace.

[RantAbsolain]

From my vantage point, Marthiir backed off his assessment of the situation once he realized that Elena had made her choices herself. He was all about blaming TC but then realized he was mistaken...

Yes, you're right - going back, Marthiir's accusations were wrong or at least only indirectly right. My problem there was with Covenant's response or lack of response to what happened to his daughter.

Covenant was grieving. He couldn't speak about her -- he choked up.

I didn't get a sense of that from my reading - in a book filled with Covenant's inner thoughts (and Linden's inner thoughts, of course), we barely saw any sentences concerning his thoughts on his daughter. Or his son. Does he not have any? Or are we not privy to them?

And not only after Elena's latest tragedy, but during - maybe the last book will reveal some hidden plan that will explain why Covenant is able to turn his back on his daughter's ghost as it runs screaming from eternal damnation while he tries to get out of Dodge. But we've always been told the story through Covenant's (and Linden's) eyes and thoughts - I can't recall Covenant ever hiding anything from the reader before.

Covenant had some excuses for getting out of there when Elena first died to Kevin after a prolonged battle - he didn't know how to use his power and he was facing a cave-in. But this latest abandonment of Elena, unexplained, seems as heinous to me as anything he ever did in the Land.

If it is explained, I'm hoping it won't seem contrived - that is, Covenant as our viewport into the story hiding things from us. I thought WGW handled that brilliantly - all of the mysteries were answered elegantly and satisfyingly, and the reader always knew everything that Covenant and Linden did. I have trouble seeing how TLD is going to duplicate the feat.