Ranking the great powers

[Horrim Carabal]

We know the white gold is #1.

How do the other great powers of Donaldson's Earth rate?

Lord Foul
Staff of Law
Illearth Stone
Kastenessen
Forestals
Croyel
Insequent
She Who Must Not Be Named
Viles
Ravers
ur-Vile loremasters
Old Lords (w/7 wards)
Kasreyn
The Krill
Orcrest
etc...

[drew]

I would alter the list slightly; also with the tag line saying only White gold being wielded by an appropriate Wielder would be at the top.


Staff of Law
Lord Foul
She Who Must Not Be Named
Illearth Stone
Kastenessen
Elohim
Forestals
Croyel
Old Lords
Krill
Ravers
Viles
ur-Vile loremasters
Insequent
Kasreyn
Orcrest
etc.

ALSO...Welcome to the Watch...its great to finally see ANOTHER Haligonian after all these years!!

[Horrim Carabal]

I would alter the list slightly; also with the tag line saying only White gold being wielded by an appropriate Wielder would be at the top.


Staff of Law
Lord Foul
She Who Must Not Be Named
Illearth Stone
Kastenessen
Elohim
Forestals
Croyel
Old Lords
Krill
Ravers
Viles
ur-Vile loremasters
Insequent
Kasreyn
Orcrest
etc.

Wasn't it said somewhere (and implied, certainly) that the Illearth Stone surpassed the Staff?

ALSO...Welcome to the Watch...its great to finally see ANOTHER Haligonian after all these years!!

Thanks! Great to be here.

[TheFallen]

How can you forget the Worm? Not even Foul can control that, though he can manipulate events in an effort to ensure the Worm's actions work for him.

I don't think that Lord Foul can be ranked below the Staff of Law. Although some of his mischiefs (such as the Sunbane) have been vanquished by the Staff, he personally has never been undone by it - he's only been overcome by either White Gold (in the hands of a rightful wielder) or by himself.

Similarly, I share Horrim's recollection that the Illearth Stone surpasses the Staff of Law.

My Land cage match seedings (with a few additions to before) would therefore be:-

White Gold (in the hands of a rightful wielder)
Worm of the World's End
Arch of Time
Lord Foul (within the Arch of Time)
She Who Must Not Be Named
Illearth Stone
Staff of Law
Kastenessen
Elohim
Forestals
Viles
Old Lords
Krill
Croyel
Ravers
Insequent
Demondim
Kasreyn of the Gyre
Sandgorgons
ur-Vile loremasters
Orcrest/Lomillialor

There is an argument to put the Insequent above the Elohim, if only on the basis that the Theomach overcame the Guardian of the One Tree, but my feeling is that this is specious. As I've posted elsewhere, the Elohim are lessened, once they accept becoming the thing that they are Appointed to (cf. Findail and the Elohim of the Colossus). Therefore Kenaustin Ardenol was beatable once he'd become the Guardian.

Similarly, ranking the Sandgorgons is tricky - they did manage to consume a Raver, but only once it was incarnate in the flesh of Honninscrave. Kasreyn of the Gyre gained control over them, hence their lowly position.

Not a complete list (for example, no Skurj, no Lurker, no Firelions and no Demimages) but thought I'd add my two cents' worth.

[Cambo]

This seems an appropriate place to put an idle thought I had recently: how to Foul and the Creator measure up when they're both outside the Arch?

The creation myth goes that the Creator made the Earth, Foul screwed around with it, which got the Creator mad and he cast him down within the Arch. But did he have an easy time of that? Was it an epic struggle between two near-equals, or a cosmic bitch slap?

[SleeplessOne]

tricky; it's difficult to compare a lot of the puissance employed in the chronicles, a lot of the powers never come into direct conflict, so I'm left to only speculate through what is inferred in the text, or just straight-out guess ..


with that in mind, I've had a bit of a think about it, I'll give reasons where I can think of them


White Gold

Lord Foul - if he hatches plans to use white gold and the Worm
Worm of the World's End to break the Arch of Time, it stands to reason he would survive such an apocalypse.
His diminishment post-Ritual of Desecration and after his battles with Covenant point to what a tough sonofabitch Foul is - the dude is like a cockroach, you just can't kill him.
His facility with manipulating all around him surpasses a lot of the Land's 'firepower' imo; and his lethal intentions are relentless

Jeremiah - this is based solely on the direction I think the story is going; to date his powers have been exploited by the croyel and Foul and Roger, and those abilities have been many and varied (teleportation, his 'steam-repulsion' trick, and, post-possession, the ability to break himself free of his own autism via the bone construct).
I'm guessing that by the conclusion of the Last Dark he will have had a world-altering effect upon the Land's fate.

the Worm - anything that can eat a planet and break Time is pretty formidable.

She Who Must Not Be Named - hmmm, hard to say, She was talked up as a big-time bane, but events in AATE didn't really inspire too much fear, She basically just lumbered about all pissed-off.
Still, the text hints that she is an immortal-type in the vein of Lord Foul and the Creator, so I suppose some respect is due ..

Blood of the Earth - highly-concentrated Earthpower in it's purest form, and the most dangerous, double-edged wish-fulfillment device there is.
With the right command, the Blood of the Earth can influence anything under the Arch of Time. Just make sure you get the command right !

Earthpower - 'fuels' and informs most of the Land's magic and power.
A reservoir of puissance

Staff of Law (and by extension, the One Tree) - in the hands of the Chosen the Staff is an incredibly potent and versatile tool, she has performed countless wonders with it since Vain and Findail first hugged ... the text of the first chrons may point to the Illearth Stone being more powerful than the SoL, but I think that in Linden's hands, and with the addition of Wildwood's runes, the SoL has surpassed the Illearth Stone's might.

the Sunbane - Foul's most fiendish piece of work; the Land's degradation, along with the cruel rituals imposed by the Clave in response to the Sunbane's reign made Foul's pies de resistance a brutal assault upon the Land.

Forestals - although they were formed from the powers of the elohim and the subsequent knowledge the forests gleaned from the elohim, their intent and purpose made them more formidable than the blase elohim - the elohim are no doubt technically more powerful, but their reluctance to actually get their hands dirty makes me rank the lethal Forestals higher in terms of perilousness ..

The Illearth Stone - what a horrible bane, to me it one of the most vivid parts of the first chronicles; it warped and tainted everything that fell under it's power.
Keep in mind that without a suitably evil bearer to focus it's power, Caeroil Wildwood disposed of a chunk of the Illearth Stone with little fuss at the end of TIW ...

Kastenessen - a pissed off elohim is more dangerous than your average slacker elohim. Fact.

Esmer - inherited all the gifts of his elohim grandsire, with a dash of jilted-merewife rage.
Also a self-loathing haruchai - in short, half-insane and very dangerous, to himself and everyone around him.

Elohim - meh. Still ...

Old Lords/New Lords - easy to underestimate given their inherent self-deprecation and restraint, but the New Lords collectively (and of course particularly Mhoram) overcame many of the powers I've listed through their very human qualities. Their actual ability to harness the Earthpower usually came with great expenditure to them physically.
The Old Lords were no doubt more lore-wise and Earthpowerful, but I believe ultimately the New Lords achieved every bit as much as their legendary predecessors.

the croyel/Ravers - hard to split the three stooges and the succubi (ew, 'orrible lil' things they are, the croyel, loved how SRD wrote Jeremiah's tormentor in AATE ..) as their primary m.o. is very similar, i.e. possession of the vilest kind.
The Ravers are probably more resilient, Caeroil Wildwood was unable to completely destroy Flesharrower and even samadhi was ultimately able to exert it's influence once again despite being 'rent'.
But I suspect the malific croyel, seemingly independent of Foul's will, might possess every bit as much lore and sheer power as the Ravers

Viles - creative as well as puissant, it would seem. Linden felt utterly powerless when in their disorienting presence (although she was able to distract/reason with them)

Insequent - hard to say, they are measured by their individual achievements moreso than the powers they wield.
And those powers are in no way innate, they are attained through study alone.
The Theomach and The Vizard were nigh-on impossible to defeat in physical combat with their ability to slip around in Time.
and The Harrow's 'look into my eyes' trick was actually pretty impressive too, as was his ability to unbind virtually anything Vile-related (the door into the Lost Deep obviously stumped him though, and ultimately he was undone by Roger like a SUCK-er.)

Demondim - they were pretty bad-ass in Fatal Revenant, but they had the Illearth Stone to amplify their ill.
They terrified the people of the Land for an age before getting themselves extinguished during the Ritual of Desecration.
And their semi-corporeal state makes them slippery suckers to engage.

ur-Viles, Ur-Vile loremasters - we always hear of their vast lore, and the fabrication of Vain and the manacles touches upon their abilities.
But let's face it, they get taken down pretty easily when confronted by the big guns in the Land ..

caesures - they are a wrong in the Land, eating away at the Arch of Time in a cancerous manner. Able to be endured by some, and to be tamed by Linden, but still incredibly destructive and potentially fatal to the Land.

the lurker (Horrim Carabal) - scary as all hell on it's home ground turf in the Sarangrave.

Sandgorgons/Skurj - I'd rank these 'monsters' pretty equally (and possibly put the enigmatic Fire-Lions a slight notch higher than them - with the arguleh a bit below, cuz, well, they can melt like ice-creams), both Sandgorgons and Skurj are like natural forces of nature (well, natural as far as the Land is concerned) - they are destructive and volatile, but their lack of intent beyond that destruction makes them slightly less dire than some of the other puissant beings on this list imo ... of course, Sandgorgons with Raver-remnants is another story ..

Kasreyn of the Gyre - his geas-skillz were recalled by the Harrow's 'look into my eyes' trick.
Obviously a very learned man, clever enough to imprison the fearsome sandgorgons, but the question as to how enslaved he was by the croyel is an open-ended one - the baddest pervert in Brathair-town that's for sure.

the krill - more of a conduit for power than a powerful weapon in itself. But try telling that to Joan ...

Orcrest/Lomillialor - similar to the krill, these artifacts are tools to conduct Earthpower

[Endymion9]

This seems an appropriate place to put an idle thought I had recently: how to Foul and the Creator measure up when they're both outside the Arch?

The creation myth goes that the Creator made the Earth, Foul screwed around with it, which got the Creator mad and he cast him down within the Arch. But did he have an easy time of that? Was it an epic struggle between two near-equals, or a cosmic bitch slap?

From my foggy memory...

The creator never seemed to express any fear of LF for himself. It was for all the people's of other worlds that he feared LF escaping.

[Endymion9]

We know the white gold is #1.

How do the other great powers of Donaldson's Earth rate?

Lord Foul
Staff of Law
Illearth Stone
Kastenessen
Forestals
Croyel
Insequent
She Who Must Not Be Named
Viles
Ravers
ur-Vile loremasters
Old Lords (w/7 wards)
Kasreyn
The Krill
Orcrest
etc...

I have to ask. How does Horrim Carabal miss your list? <grin>

[Horrim Carabal]

... the text of the first chrons may point to the Illearth Stone being more powerful than the SoL, but I think that in Linden's hands, and with the addition of Wildwood's runes, the SoL has surpassed the Illearth Stone's might.

Wild magic dispatched of the Staff of Law in an instant when Elena swung it at Covenant. Yet when TC threw his arms around the Illearth Stone, the green and argent battled in the air for what seemed like minutes before the Stone shattered. That tells me that Illearth>Law.

The Illearth Stone - what a horrible bane, to me it one of the most vivid parts of the first chronicles; it warped and tainted everything that fell under it's power.
Keep in mind that without a suitably evil bearer to focus it's power, Caeroil Wildwood disposed of a chunk of the Illearth Stone with little fuss at the end of TIW ...

A small sliver, yes. But toss the entire bane into Garrotting Deep and that forestal would be in trouble I think.

Ravers - the three stooges

Hilarious!

Skurj - I'd ... possibly put the enigmatic Fire-Lions a slight notch higher than them

Me too. The Fire-Lions would be like "gtf off Mt Thunder." if the skurj went there.

Kasreyn of the Gyre - Obviously a very learned man, clever enough to imprison the fearsome sandgorgons, but the question as to how enslaved he was by the croyel is an open-ended one

I've always thought this was straight-forward in the text. Kaseryn wanted to live forever (or as close as possible) and so bargained for "My Life!" with the croyel.

[Endymion9]

The more I think the Kasreyn we saw would have to be ranked higher than the croyel, as he was really the power and knowledge of the croyel mixed with the magical knowledge of Kasreyn himself. He was Kasreyn + Croyel. We don't know what power he had alone but something + croyel must be greater than croyel alone.

[Cambo]

This seems an appropriate place to put an idle thought I had recently: how to Foul and the Creator measure up when they're both outside the Arch?

The creation myth goes that the Creator made the Earth, Foul screwed around with it, which got the Creator mad and he cast him down within the Arch. But did he have an easy time of that? Was it an epic struggle between two near-equals, or a cosmic bitch slap?

From my foggy memory...

The creator never seemed to express any fear of LF for himself. It was for all the people's of other worlds that he feared LF escaping.

This is true. But from my own foggy memory, when Foul gets the white gold ring off Covenant in WGW, he seems pretty keen to get into the ring with the Creator once he breaks the Arch. He says something to the effect of "here I come, you better watch your back!"

[Horrim Carabal]

I have to ask. How does Horrim Carabal miss your list? <grin>

Well the Lurker is powerful, but only (I think) in a purely physical way. Is there any evidence that Horrim uses Earthpower or has Lore? If not, he's just a beast like the nicor. Impressive, but not compared to the others on the list.

The more I think the Kasreyn we saw would have to be ranked higher than the croyel, as he was really the power and knowledge of the croyel mixed with the magical knowledge of Kasreyn himself. He was Kasreyn + Croyel. We don't know what power he had alone but something + croyel must be greater than croyel alone.

Good point. Kasreyn certainly seemed to be incredibly powerful (going toe to toe with the White Gold Wielder is something to boast about).

This is true. But from my own foggy memory, when Foul gets the white gold ring off Covenant in WGW, he seems pretty keen to get into the ring with the Creator once he breaks the Arch. He says something to the effect of "here I come, you better watch your back!"

Also a good point. "Ware me, my Enemy!" or something to that extent. If Foul and the Creator are close in power level, he might be guessing/betting that the white gold will make him the Creator's equal.

Another possibility is that Foul is delusional. After all, Lucifer rebelled against God in the Bible even though there was no way in (pardon the pun) hell he could have hoped to win.

[Horrim Carabal]

[dupe]

[Endymion9]

I have to ask. How does Horrim Carabal miss your list? <grin>

Well the Lurker is powerful, but only (I think) in a purely physical way. Is there any evidence that Horrim uses Earthpower or has Lore? If not, he's just a beast like the nicor. Impressive, but not compared to the others on the list.

I thought of the Lurker as only a very powerful beast, until in AATE where he displayed both intelligence and the ability to influence other beings and get them to do his bidding. But if you are only ranking on Earthpower I can see where you left him off.

[Lord Zombiac]

what about Jeremiah?
his powers could trap foul, elohim, creator, and allow Roger and the Croel to surive the collapse of the arch of time.
what about forestals or the collosus?

[Horrim Carabal]

what about Jeremiah?
his powers could trap foul, elohim, creator, and allow Roger and the Croel to surive the collapse of the arch of time.
what about forestals or the collosus?

No idea where Jeremiah fits.

Forestals are on the list. The Colossus is an Elohim so it's the same.

[bikebryan]

The Collossus fell during the time of the Sunbane. Does that mean that the power of the Elohim that was bound into it was undone and is that Elohim "dead?"

[Horrim Carabal]

The Collossus fell during the time of the Sunbane. Does that mean that the power of the Elohim that was bound into it was undone and is that Elohim "dead?"

Yes but it was weakening even before the Sunbane. The durance against the Ravers was collapsing in the First Chronicles.

I'm sure the Sunbane finished it off...Elohim are pure Earthpower and a trapped Elohim would be very succeptible to the corruption of the Sunbane I would assume.

[Orlion]

I believe Foul is essentially powerless. He can't get anything done in and of himself. He couldn't even retrieve the Illearth Stone himself! His damage is dealt in manipulating others to do his will... he's actually very similar to a croyel.

[Endymion9]

I believe Foul is essentially powerless. He can't get anything done in and of himself. He couldn't even retrieve the Illearth Stone himself! His damage is dealt in manipulating others to do his will... he's actually very similar to a croyel.

Compared to every other passage about LF, it seems like his final scene in WGW is totally uncharacteristic, with him using a physical item (the ring).