Malazan Issues [And Stuff] (Spoilers)
Moderators: lucimay, Onos T'oolan
- Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
- Posts: 61746
- Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
- Has thanked: 15 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Malazan Issues [And Stuff] (Spoilers)
As you may or may not know, I'm reading the series again in preparation for TCG. And there have always been little things that bugged me here and there, mainly internal consistency. So I'm trying to keep a note of them this time round.
I'll add to this as I read, but here's what I got so far.
Karsa
In DHG, (1163ish) Leoman says that Karsa is 17, and that he's killed 40 odd people. Then in HoC, in the beginning, (1159), Karsa is in his 80th year, and just come to manhood.
How old is he actually? (And how big is he?...he doesn't seem that big in DHG, but in HoC full grown adult faces are scaled to that of a new-born Teblor, and the full-blood Toblokai (in the well) is described as about 3 times the size of a large man.)
Grub/Keneb
In HoC, Keneb introduces Grub (aged 3ish?) as an orphan Duiker put into his care at the conclusion to the Chain of Dogs, and who had nobody else to look after him.
In DHG though, Duiker gives Keneb a female infant, and later, Keneb is on the way to tell Duiker that the child's grandfather has been found when he realises the truth about Mallick Rel.
So, where did Grub come from then?
--A
I'll add to this as I read, but here's what I got so far.
Karsa
In DHG, (1163ish) Leoman says that Karsa is 17, and that he's killed 40 odd people. Then in HoC, in the beginning, (1159), Karsa is in his 80th year, and just come to manhood.
How old is he actually? (And how big is he?...he doesn't seem that big in DHG, but in HoC full grown adult faces are scaled to that of a new-born Teblor, and the full-blood Toblokai (in the well) is described as about 3 times the size of a large man.)
Grub/Keneb
In HoC, Keneb introduces Grub (aged 3ish?) as an orphan Duiker put into his care at the conclusion to the Chain of Dogs, and who had nobody else to look after him.
In DHG though, Duiker gives Keneb a female infant, and later, Keneb is on the way to tell Duiker that the child's grandfather has been found when he realises the truth about Mallick Rel.
So, where did Grub come from then?
--A
- Mr. Broken
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:49 pm
- Location: The arm pit of hell, Titusville Pa.
- Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
- Posts: 61746
- Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
- Has thanked: 15 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Yeah, that did occur to me. Seems needlessly pointless though...a year is a year, whether you live for 50 years or a hundred...the earth has revolved around the sun once.
That whole "dog years" thing is nonsense. It's people's way of trying to come to terms with the fact that dogs have a shorter lifespan. We don't have hamster years do we?
--A
That whole "dog years" thing is nonsense. It's people's way of trying to come to terms with the fact that dogs have a shorter lifespan. We don't have hamster years do we?
--A
- Mr. Broken
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:49 pm
- Location: The arm pit of hell, Titusville Pa.
It fits with the Teblor's views of low landers as children. I have to admit it took me a while to like the character of Karsa Orlong, for exactly that reason. Until it became apparent that his intent wasnt really to slaughter actual children, but the low landers enslaving his people. I guess my point is that the Teblor see themselves as bigger people with longer lives , and comparing their life spans to actual humans may require a condensed version. That or Leoman just didnt know, and lying was easier than explaining, or admitting that he didnt know.
Wide Eyed Stupid
- Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
- Posts: 61746
- Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
- Has thanked: 15 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Damn it. I know I've got an issue with the timeline for Moranth munitions. Sure I read something about the alliance having lasted a long time, since a certain date, but other mentions make the munitions seem more recent.
Also, there's no date at the beginning of TtH...and in Reapers Gale, somebody, (Seren? Udinaas?) says something about the end of their years long quest.
Lotta tragedy in RG.
--A
Also, there's no date at the beginning of TtH...and in Reapers Gale, somebody, (Seren? Udinaas?) says something about the end of their years long quest.
Lotta tragedy in RG.
--A
- Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
Nah, seems like Erikson stopped using dates when he found out he couldn't keep them straight.
But yeah, I'm pretty sure Silchas Ruin implied that he and his group were wondering about since the end of MT to the beginning of RG (and beyond! )
Moranth are a little confusing. But hey, they could have only had the munitions when they've been on Genabeckis... and I don't remember if that was a continent that the Emperor was involved with invading...
But yeah, I'm pretty sure Silchas Ruin implied that he and his group were wondering about since the end of MT to the beginning of RG (and beyond! )
Moranth are a little confusing. But hey, they could have only had the munitions when they've been on Genabeckis... and I don't remember if that was a continent that the Emperor was involved with invading...
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- aliantha
- blueberries on steroids
- Posts: 17865
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:50 pm
- Location: NOT opening up a restaurant in Santa Fe
Kellanved, you mean? Hmm, good point. Genabackis might have been the previous guy.
EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
https://www.hearth-myth.com/
- I'm Murrin
- Are you?
- Posts: 15840
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:09 pm
- Location: North East, UK
- Contact:
As far as I remember, the Moranth were a very isolated and secretive culture descended from Imass and Toblakai stock much like the Barghast, who had been living hidden in their woods on Genabackis for a very long time. The Black Moranth were the first to make deals with outsiders and reveal their munitions - which they did sometime after the Malazan Empire arrived on the continent.
Now as for dating the Malazan invasion itself, I can't quite say - in Gardens of the Moon they already controlled the northern part of the continent. The invasion and expansion across the north either had not begun or had not reached far a few decades before Karsa Orlong descended from the mountains in House of Chains (he was captured sometime before the siege of Pale, and was being transported through the northern regions to the coast when Pale fell).
We can probably get more specific from Fiddler's recollection in The Bonehunters about what occurs when Moranth munitions meet Otataral - the conflagration he refers to occured during the conquest of Seven Cities. We know the Seven Cities conquest occured while Kellanved was still nominally Emperor, but probably the events on the otataral isles took place while he and Dancer were on their travels. (Kellanved was absent when the T'lan Imass were used to slaughter one of the resisting cities, though it's possible he did in fact sit the First Throne to give that order.)
We can be pretty certain, then, that the first contact with the Moranth, and the first use of munitions outside of the Moranth's own secretive culture, was during the earliest stages of the Genabackan campaign, while most of the Empire's strength was focused on conquering the last remaining portions of Seven Cities.
So, given that Fiddler is in his 40s, and the Night of Knives was about 17 years prior to the beginning of the series, my guess would put it somewhere between 20 and 30 years before Gardens of the Moon.
Now as for dating the Malazan invasion itself, I can't quite say - in Gardens of the Moon they already controlled the northern part of the continent. The invasion and expansion across the north either had not begun or had not reached far a few decades before Karsa Orlong descended from the mountains in House of Chains (he was captured sometime before the siege of Pale, and was being transported through the northern regions to the coast when Pale fell).
We can probably get more specific from Fiddler's recollection in The Bonehunters about what occurs when Moranth munitions meet Otataral - the conflagration he refers to occured during the conquest of Seven Cities. We know the Seven Cities conquest occured while Kellanved was still nominally Emperor, but probably the events on the otataral isles took place while he and Dancer were on their travels. (Kellanved was absent when the T'lan Imass were used to slaughter one of the resisting cities, though it's possible he did in fact sit the First Throne to give that order.)
We can be pretty certain, then, that the first contact with the Moranth, and the first use of munitions outside of the Moranth's own secretive culture, was during the earliest stages of the Genabackan campaign, while most of the Empire's strength was focused on conquering the last remaining portions of Seven Cities.
So, given that Fiddler is in his 40s, and the Night of Knives was about 17 years prior to the beginning of the series, my guess would put it somewhere between 20 and 30 years before Gardens of the Moon.
- Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
- Posts: 61746
- Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
- Has thanked: 15 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Wasn't KoN about 7 years before GotM? (Well, the prologue of GotM?
Say, in DHG, wasn't Challice a D'Arl? In TtH, it says she was once an Etraysian (sp?).
Also, we meet Karsa's daughters here...I remember Ali or Duchess had a problem with this.
Now, IIRC, (I wrote it down, but that's at home) HoC starts in 1159. That's when Karsa goes on his raid. Now his daughters are a year or two shy of adulthood. So that would make them 15 or 16ish. That would make HoC 1174. (Ruin's years long quest?)
It also creates a problem with HoC saying Karsa was an adult at 80 though.
The idea that it's a comparative to "human years" doesn't work. Otherwise they wouldn't see the humans as short-lived.
--A
Say, in DHG, wasn't Challice a D'Arl? In TtH, it says she was once an Etraysian (sp?).
Also, we meet Karsa's daughters here...I remember Ali or Duchess had a problem with this.
Now, IIRC, (I wrote it down, but that's at home) HoC starts in 1159. That's when Karsa goes on his raid. Now his daughters are a year or two shy of adulthood. So that would make them 15 or 16ish. That would make HoC 1174. (Ruin's years long quest?)
It also creates a problem with HoC saying Karsa was an adult at 80 though.
The idea that it's a comparative to "human years" doesn't work. Otherwise they wouldn't see the humans as short-lived.
--A
- I'm Murrin
- Are you?
- Posts: 15840
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:09 pm
- Location: North East, UK
- Contact:
We already know Midnight Tides began about 4 years prior to House of Chains and ended about 2 years before it. Reaper's Gale takes place a little over 6 months after the end of Bonehunters, because that's how long the Bonehunters have been at sea before they land in Letheras. So Silchas and Udinaas and the others have been wandering around the subcontinent for between 2 and 3 years.
- Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
Karsa was all ready pretty 'old' when he left... at least forty, according to my perceptions. The whole Toblaki age thing is pretty crazy... it's almost like they reach adolescence at the same time as humans do, but stay there for 30 years.
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- I'm Murrin
- Are you?
- Posts: 15840
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:09 pm
- Location: North East, UK
- Contact:
- Avatar
- Immanentizing The Eschaton
- Posts: 61746
- Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
- Has thanked: 15 times
- Been thanked: 21 times
Yes. It was 80 in HoC and he'd just come of age. But as I point out above, Leoman tells Heboric that he's 17.
Now, 80 for a Toblokai might be the same as 17 for a human, but it's still 80 revolutions around the sun.
Now, his daughters might be just short of adulthood, (80), but it sure hasn't been 80 years since the beginning of HoC.
(You sure it was only 6 months the Bonehunters were at sea? I thought it was more like a year.)
--A
Now, 80 for a Toblokai might be the same as 17 for a human, but it's still 80 revolutions around the sun.
Now, his daughters might be just short of adulthood, (80), but it sure hasn't been 80 years since the beginning of HoC.
(You sure it was only 6 months the Bonehunters were at sea? I thought it was more like a year.)
--A
- Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
Why not both? One from her father, the other from her mother... making her a mutt! (but a pure-blood one at that )Avatar wrote:And now, 250 odd pages later, Challice was a D'Arle again.
--A
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- aliantha
- blueberries on steroids
- Posts: 17865
- Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:50 pm
- Location: NOT opening up a restaurant in Santa Fe
SRD wrote:Internal consistency's a bitch.
EZ Board Survivor
"Dreaming isn't good for you unless you do the things it tells you to." -- Three Dog Night (via the GI)
https://www.hearth-myth.com/
- Orlion
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 6666
- Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:30 am
- Location: Getting there...
- Been thanked: 1 time
I always thought he was just Redmask, that he was adopted after being found in the wreckage of a caravan, or something like that. I don't think there's any Letheri that we met that decided to take up the Redmask mantle.Avatar wrote: Say, do we know who Redmask was?
--A
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville
I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!
"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
- I'm Murrin
- Are you?
- Posts: 15840
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:09 pm
- Location: North East, UK
- Contact:
Yeah, he wasn't supposed to be a recognisable individual, just a tragic figure when it is revealed that his overzealous hatred of the Letheri comes from the fact that he is a Letheri and was treated like crap his entire life by his tribe for being one. He's a frustrated child who uses the tribes to take out his issues, ultimately leading to their destruction and his death.