Objectivism = adolescence?

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Objectivism = adolescence?

Post by aliantha »

Objectivism is a philosophy, right? So I'm posting this in the right place, right? (If I post it in the Tank, I'll get killed... :lol:)

I'm intrigued by this opinion piece. The author worked in the administration of Bush the Elder. Yet his comments about Libertarianism are pretty much what I've been thinking for awhile.
Ayn Rand’s adult-onset adolescence
By Michael Gerson, Thursday, April 21, 8:00 PM

The movie “Atlas Shrugged,” adapted from Ayn Rand’s 1957 novel by the same name, is a triumph of cinematic irony. A work that lectures us endlessly on the moral superiority of heroic achievement is itself a model of mediocrity. In this, the film perfectly reflects both the novel and the mind behind it.

Rand is something of a cultural phenomenon — the author of potboilers who became an ethical and political philosopher, a libertarian heroine. But Rand’s distinctive mix of expressive egotism, free love and free-market metallurgy does not hold up very well on the screen. The emotional center of the movie is the success of high-speed rail — oddly similar to a proposal in Barack Obama’s last State of the Union address. All of the characters are ideological puppets. Visionary, comely capitalists are assaulted by sniveling government planners, smirking lobbyists, nagging wives, rented scientists and cynical humanitarians. When characters begin disappearing — on strike against the servility and inferiority of the masses — one does not question their wisdom in leaving the movie.

None of the characters expresses a hint of sympathetic human emotion — which is precisely the point. Rand’s novels are vehicles for a system of thought known as Objectivism. Rand developed this philosophy at the length of Tolstoy, with the intellectual pretensions of Hegel, but it can be summarized on a napkin. Reason is everything. Religion is a fraud. Selfishness is a virtue. Altruism is a crime against human excellence. Self-sacrifice is weakness. Weakness is contemptible. “The Objectivist ethics, in essence,” said Rand, “hold that man exists for his own sake, that the pursuit of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose, that he must not sacrifice himself to others, nor sacrifice others to himself.”

If Objectivism seems familiar, it is because most people know it under another name: adolescence. Many of us experienced a few unfortunate years of invincible self-involvement, testing moral boundaries and prone to stormy egotism and hero worship. Usually one grows out of it, eventually discovering that the quality of our lives is tied to the benefit of others. Rand’s achievement was to turn a phase into a philosophy, as attractive as an outbreak of acne.

The appeal of Ayn Rand to conservatives is both considerable and inexplicable. Modern conservatism was largely defined by Ronald Reagan’s faith in the people instead of elites. Rand regarded the people as “looters” and “parasites.” She was a strenuous advocate for class warfare, except that she took the side of a mythical class of capitalist supermen. Rand, in fact, pronounced herself “profoundly opposed” to Reagan’s presidential candidacy, since he did not meet her exacting ideological standards.

Rand cherished a particular disdain for Christianity. The cross, she said, is “the symbol of the sacrifice of the ideal to the nonideal. . . . It is in the name of that symbol that men are asked to sacrifice themselves for their inferiors. That is precisely how the symbolism is used. That is torture.” Yet some conservatives marked Holy Week by attending and embracing “Atlas Shrugged.”

Reaction to Rand draws a line in political theory. Some believe with Rand that all government is coercion and theft — the tearing-down of the strong for the benefit of the undeserving. Others believe that government has a limited but noble role in helping the most vulnerable in society — not motivated by egalitarianism, which is destructive, but by compassion, which is human. And some root this duty in God’s particular concern for the vulnerable and undeserving, which eventually includes us all. This is the message of Easter, and it is inconsistent with the gospel of Rand.

Many libertarians trace their inspiration to Rand’s novels, while sometimes distancing themselves from Objectivism. But both libertarians and Objectivists are moved by the mania of a single idea — a freedom indistinguishable from selfishness. This unbalanced emphasis on one element of political theory — at the expense of other public goals such as justice and equal opportunity — is the evidence of a rigid ideology. Socialists take a similar path, embracing equality as an absolute value. Both ideologies have led good people into supporting policies with serious human costs.

Conservatives have been generally suspicious of all ideologies, preferring long practice and moral tradition to utopian schemes of left or right. And Rand is nothing if not utopian. In “Atlas Shrugged,” she refers to her libertarian valley of the blessed as Atlantis.

It is an attractive place, which does not exist, and those who seek it drown.
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Post by Vraith »

Objectivism is a philosophy according to SOME people.
What it really is is Nietzsche with all the important/hard stuff taken out.
[that is a gross simplification...but mostly of the N. side, not the Rand side...she, IIRC began by liking/supporting his ideas, ended up rejecting them in her statements about him...nevertheless, her work only deviates slightly from his central thoughts, and the deviations are where she is most nebulous or flat out inconsistent. Related topic, she claims Hume and Kant are basically the devil incarnate, out to destroy reason utterly in the world].
If ya want a laugh, keep in mind that Rand says her works are "Romantic" [lit/crit definition], and what was basically the rape of one of her main female characters was OK...because she really DID want to be "taken," and the hero knew it [he knew it because she was a complete and utter BITCH to him, and kept trying to put him in his "place."]
OTOH...certain things are attractive in her fictional world. For instance, the "good guy" bosses treat "good guy" underlings with unqualified respect. The underling may not have ALL the talents of the bosses...but they are highly competent at what they DO, and the bosses acknowledge that...in part by paying them well for it, in part by speaking to them as equally human and worthy, if not equal in the business hierarchy.
Her huge mistake is that she believes real people would act like her people if only they had the freedom to do so.
Ironically, her husband is the epitome of the leeches and parasites she talks of...he did nothing but live off of everything she did while doing nothing himself.
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Post by aliantha »

Yeah, at least her greedy characters are greedy for a reason -- they're upholding the utopian values of freedom through capitalism. Sadly, as you mentioned, real people don't act that way.

I've read "Atlas Shrugged" and one other book of hers -- can't remember which one right now. I went in with an open mind, but (as you might imagine :lol:) in the end I had some trouble buying her philosophy.
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Post by Savor Dam »

Hmm...

I am no authority on Rand. I doubt I have ever completed any work of hers. I am a voracious old-school reader and I do have her best-known works (Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead) on my shelves...but if I've finished either, I do not remember such.

That does not seem to be an impediment here, as the premise of Gerson's essay seems to be based on a movie adapted from Rand's novel, rather than the novel itself.

A nod here to Cambo, who recently pointed out elsewhere that Minority Report was a book before it was a Tom Cruise film.

Nor am I an adherent of Objectivism as a philosophy or Libertarianism as a political movement.

My point is that it is simplistic and inaccurate to characterize as adolescent a philosophy of "man exists for his own sake, that the pursuit of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose, that he must not sacrifice himself to others, nor sacrifice others to himself.” Consider that in its entirety, not neglecting the last bit. With the final phrase included, this clearly rises above the adolescent self-absorption Gerson tries to make of it.

As long as one keeps that balanced perspective, I think that statement is a fairly rational philosophy for someone who does not embrace a more extensive spirituality…and has value even to those who do have a deeper grounding. Of course, I am approaching this with assumptions of honorable True Will rather than a completely hedonistic demeanor.
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Post by rusmeister »

I'd rather go with Webster's definitions than with what some snooty moderns came up with to make something simple something complicated.
Webster wrote:Definition of OBJECTIVISM
1: any of various theories asserting the validity of objective phenomena over subjective experience; especially : realism 2a
2
: an ethical theory that moral good is objectively real or that moral precepts are objectively valid
Rand didn't invent this. This has been around since the Greek philosophers and before. People have always asserted the validity of objective phenomena. So I would say that naming a peculiar idea of Rand's as that idea is, well, just wrong, whichever modern academicians wish to do so.

If you want to discuss Rand, go ahead. I'm not interested. But trying to equate an eclectic theory with the enormous common sense of objective truth is not intellectual, whether Rand did, or anyone else. It may be philosophy, but it is certainly degraded, and does not build on established truth and is therefore wrong (a dirty word for the subjectivist). Anything which works toward subjectivism (the denial of objective truth) is.
Webster wrote:Definition of SUBJECTIVISM
1
a : a theory that limits knowledge to subjective experience b : a theory that stresses the subjective elements in experience
2
a : a doctrine that the supreme good is the realization of a subjective experience or feeling (as pleasure) b : a doctrine that individual feeling or apprehension is the ultimate criterion of the good and the right
Of course, I guess if you call it "Randism" then I have nothing at all to say about it.
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Post by rdhopeca »

rusmeister wrote:I'd rather go with Webster's definitions than with what some snooty moderns came up with to make something simple something complicated.
This actually made me laugh out loud. This expresses quite nicely how I feel about most of the opinions of the sources you site. :roll:
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Post by rusmeister »

rdhopeca wrote:
rusmeister wrote:I'd rather go with Webster's definitions than with what some snooty moderns came up with to make something simple something complicated.
This actually made me laugh out loud. This expresses quite nicely how I feel about most of the opinions of the sources you site. :roll:
I'm not surprised, Rob. Screwtape does see things inside out.
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Post by Savor Dam »

Whew! When I saw who had posted next, I feared that I would have far more to deal with than what I now find. Thanks for taking it relatively easy on me, rus!

I agree that the labels applied by Rand to her faux philosophy, and by others to the extensions thereto, are pretty worthless. That is why I set them aside in my preliminary comments and focused on what I felt was the core statement of the philosophy being put forth.

I am sure that even with my disclaimer rejecting hedonism and embracing a more enlightened view of the intent of "Do as thou wilt", there is much there to be disagreed with, but as I probably expressed poorly, I think that one who lacks a deeper spirituality could do worse than to adopt an ethic of the pursuit of happiness that neither sacrifices self for others nor sacrifices others for self.

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Post by rusmeister »

Savor Dam wrote:Whew! When I saw who had posted next, I feared that I would have far more to deal with than what I now find. Thanks for taking it relatively easy on me, rus!
:welcome:
What was that Teddy Roosevelt was famous for saying...?
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Post by Fist and Faith »

As I just posted last week, they earn all that they make. And there's nothing wrong with being proud of having accomplished something that others want or need. But interactions with others must be a part of making a profit. You have to at least sell what you make, and you probably have to have transactions with other people or businesses in order to make what you're selling. And they never want to have transactions that are anything other than mutually beneficial. Rearden would never take advantage of someone else. Profiting at the expense of others is the way of the looter. He can have no pride in his accomplishments if he steals or cheats someone out of what he needs.

And there's nothing wrong with the thought that "I made this. It's a product of my mind and hands. That means it's mine to do with as I please. You don't control what I produced. You control what you produced."

Savor Dam wrote:My point is that it is simplistic and inaccurate to characterize as adolescent a philosophy of "man exists for his own sake, that the pursuit of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose, that he must not sacrifice himself to others, nor sacrifice others to himself.” Consider that in its entirety, not neglecting the last bit. With the final phrase included, this clearly rises above the adolescent self-absorption Gerson tries to make of it.
Well said.
Vraith wrote:Her huge mistake is that she believes real people would act like her people if only they had the freedom to do so.
If she believed real people would act like her characters, then yeah, she's largely wrong. Nothing prevents us from doing so now. But if she believes real people should act like that, then she's right. We can all try to keep these things in mind, and try to live without taking advantage of others. No, the world will never be this way. But I can try to be.
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Post by Vraith »

Fist and Faith wrote:
Vraith wrote:Her huge mistake is that she believes real people would act like her people if only they had the freedom to do so.
If she believed real people would act like her characters, then yeah, she's largely wrong. Nothing prevents us from doing so now. But if she believes real people should act like that, then she's right. We can all try to keep these things in mind, and try to live without taking advantage of others. No, the world will never be this way. But I can try to be.
I agree [and with most of what I snipped out, too], as an ideological structure/system it has some great strengths and value [though it is materialistic, so Rus will never go for it]. And she says her fiction isn't meant to be didactic or polemic, but art.
Nevertheless, while insisting on objective facts as a root, she denies certain facts [for example, neither nature NOR nurture has any deterministic effects on who/what you are].
And, while denying any value/meaning in the Subjective, she says self-esteem is a foundational value...and there aren't many things more subjective than self-esteem.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by Orlion »

rusmeister wrote:I'd rather go with Webster's definitions than with what some snooty moderns came up with to make something simple something complicated.
Webster wrote:Definition of OBJECTIVISM
1: any of various theories asserting the validity of objective phenomena over subjective experience; especially : realism 2a
2
: an ethical theory that moral good is objectively real or that moral precepts are objectively valid
Rand didn't invent this. This has been around since the Greek philosophers and before. People have always asserted the validity of objective phenomena. So I would say that naming a peculiar idea of Rand's as that idea is, well, just wrong, whichever modern academicians wish to do so.

If you want to discuss Rand, go ahead. I'm not interested. But trying to equate an eclectic theory with the enormous common sense of objective truth is not intellectual, whether Rand did, or anyone else. It may be philosophy, but it is certainly degraded, and does not build on established truth and is therefore wrong (a dirty word for the subjectivist). Anything which works toward subjectivism (the denial of objective truth) is.
Webster wrote:Definition of SUBJECTIVISM
1
a : a theory that limits knowledge to subjective experience b : a theory that stresses the subjective elements in experience
2
a : a doctrine that the supreme good is the realization of a subjective experience or feeling (as pleasure) b : a doctrine that individual feeling or apprehension is the ultimate criterion of the good and the right
Of course, I guess if you call it "Randism" then I have nothing at all to say about it.
It's interesting to note that part of, let's call it "Randism" is that there is an objective reality out there that exists beyond our wants and desires. X is X, and so forth. That's why Ayn Rand attached the name 'objectivism' to her philosophy, instead of 'rational selfishness', as at least a part of her philosophy is called.
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Post by aliantha »

rus, to be clear, Rand herself named her philosophy Objectivism. It's not a label that somebody slapped on it years later. If you're going to argue dictionary definitions with anybody over this, you'll have to do it with her. ;)

I do applaud her characters' refusal to act in ways that would hurt people (other than her villians). But otoh, it falls into the trap -- here's the utopia angle again -- of believing that anybody who has the will can pull him/herself up by his/her bootstraps under a capitalist system and act ethically and still become rich. It's the same as telling American kids that any of them could grow up to be President. Theoretically it's true, but in reality? Not so much. Maybe you can get to a certain level -- maybe even a pretty high level -- while chasing that dream, but clearly not everybody is going to make it to the top. And about the time you figure that out -- about the time you realize that the people who really are making it are the lucky, the scam artists, and those who started out with more than you did -- you realize you'll have to live with failure. Or settle for less.

Maybe I'm just bitter. :lol: But it does seem to me that this is one of the realizations people come to when they hit 50. You're not too far from retirement, and you begin to realize that you're about as far up the food chain as you're likely to get.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Atlas Shrugged doesn't say anybody can become rich. It says anybody can do the best they can do, and can be proud of doing so. Being the janitor is an essential and noble role. It's a worthy profession. But, while Rearden wouldn't even consider trying to pay such a vital person peanuts, the janitor's not gonna get rich.
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Post by Savor Dam »

Fist and Faith wrote:...the janitor's not gonna get rich.
Not from janitorial wages, anyway. Still, there is nothing to keep the janitor from also being a songwriter, inventor, or even lottery player -- leading to a single event of inspiration or luck that may make him/her rich, while still being a janitor in terms of career choice.

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Post by rusmeister »

aliantha wrote:rus, to be clear, Rand herself named her philosophy Objectivism. It's not a label that somebody slapped on it years later. If you're going to argue dictionary definitions with anybody over this, you'll have to do it with her. ;)

I do applaud her characters' refusal to act in ways that would hurt people (other than her villians). But otoh, it falls into the trap -- here's the utopia angle again -- of believing that anybody who has the will can pull him/herself up by his/her bootstraps under a capitalist system and act ethically and still become rich. It's the same as telling American kids that any of them could grow up to be President. Theoretically it's true, but in reality? Not so much. Maybe you can get to a certain level -- maybe even a pretty high level -- while chasing that dream, but clearly not everybody is going to make it to the top. And about the time you figure that out -- about the time you realize that the people who really are making it are the lucky, the scam artists, and those who started out with more than you did -- you realize you'll have to live with failure. Or settle for less.

Maybe I'm just bitter. :lol: But it does seem to me that this is one of the realizations people come to when they hit 50. You're not too far from retirement, and you begin to realize that you're about as far up the food chain as you're likely to get.
Thank you, Ali.

I realize that what seems an opinion to you seems a fact to me, but what is obvious to me is that the further philosophers get away from Christianity,
a) the more muddled they get
b) the more they disagree with each other
c) the less objective truth they ever arrive at (which is, uh, the point of philosophy)

Even philosophers of the Endarkenment had more common sense and logic than those of our era - there's a lot more that's harder to disagree with - it just seems to get easier and easier. Sure I wasn't a philosophy major but I do read and am interested in philosophy. Of course, the logic is that if the philosophy goes wrong, then a philosophy major taught in a tradition of falsehood will know philosophy (as a discipline striving to attain truth) more poorly than a country bumpkin, who at least maintains common sense - which is what I believe to be the case today.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Fist and Faith wrote:Rearden would never take advantage of someone else.
Actually, he would...from a certain point of view. Suppose you approach him and place an order and offer to buy some metal for $1000 per ton (a fair market price). His people have already done some research on your company and he knows that you can afford $1500, a number you really could afford but don't want to pay. At the negotiation table you know you can pay it and he knows you can pay it...so he is going to say "the price is $1500 per ton and that is final". This is "taking advantage of you" because he is offering a price you can afford but he is not going to break you with it.

Mr. Gerson sounds like he was forced to read Atlas Shrugged either in high school or college and absolutely hated it because the book was so long. Either that or he just didn't like the movie (which I agree was okay but not great). He is, of course, entitled to his opinion...even though it is incorrect.

Objectivism and Libertarianism really don't have a whole lot in common. Libertarians are about freedom from a political point of view--the Federal Government has gotten too intrusive and too heavy with power. Objectivism is about taking pride in your work, not compromising your principles, doing the best job you can do regardless of the task at hand, and not letting people walk all over you.

I value my wife and our children. If I make their lives better then they, in turn, make my life better. This is normal and healthy.
I value my employer--I do a good job and I earn my pay. However, beyond that I owe my employer nothing. If someone else is willing to pay me more to do what I do now because I do my job well, then I tell my current employer "match their offer or I am gone". This is also both normal and healthy. I am not really working for my employer; rather, I am working for myself.

The point of Atlas Shrugged is that people should treat each other as equals with respect. You don't respect someone by demanding that they give you the benefit of their efforts for free.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Rearden would never take advantage of someone else.
Actually, he would...from a certain point of view. Suppose you approach him and place an order and offer to buy some metal for $1000 per ton (a fair market price). His people have already done some research on your company and he knows that you can afford $1500, a number you really could afford but don't want to pay. At the negotiation table you know you can pay it and he knows you can pay it...so he is going to say "the price is $1500 per ton and that is final". This is "taking advantage of you" because he is offering a price you can afford but he is not going to break you with it.
It's been years, so I don't remember every scene. Did this happen? Because I don't think it would. Rearden would know how much the stuff is worth, and would sell it at that price. He wouldn't try to sell it for more than it's worth, because, whether or not the person could afford it, it's not morally correct to do so. A multi-billionaire still pays $1 for a candy bar. That's how the economy was in Galt's Gulch, eh? Rearden would not be able to feel any pride in his accomplishments by earning millions on the sale of a candy bar just because he had someone over a barrel. How could he feel he earned it?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

No, that was a hypothetical scenario I made up.

Hank would charge the price he knew he could get away with, based on your own financial situation. It is perfectly permissible to raise the price up front, especially if your company will stand to profit through the use of his metal. You, knowing full well the value of building your whatervers out of Rearden Metal, would find a way to pay that price so that you, yourself, can profit from its use.

That is neither cheating nor taking advantage of someone. In fact, it is a sign of respect. If the positions were reversed, you would do exactly the same thing.

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Post by Vraith »

Well...in Rand's perfect world, it wouldn't happen.
Because what the buyer was willing to pay, and what Reardon wanted to sell for, would both be exactly, to the penny, the fair market price. Otherwise one of the two would be "looting" the other. In her business model, in fact, the fair market price is the definition of respect between businessmen.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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