The Common Understanding of the Lords

[wayfriend]

Stave said, "[...] By the common understanding of the Lords, the death of the summoner ended the summons. So it transpired three times for the ur-Lord, the Unbeliever. Yet when Atiaran Trell-mate died in fire, Hile Troy remained.

"The Council of Lords believed that his summons was not undone because in his own world his death preceded that of his summoner. Therefore his spirit could not return to its former life, and his place in the Land was fixed."

I think many readers have been holding out hope that Linden may not be dead in her real world. That Jeremiah may not be dead.

However, Joan, their summoner, has died.

On the face of it, this means that Linden, Jeremiah, and Roger, are all dead. As Covenant is dead. Because otherwise they would have returned to their own world. Unless we discover in the Final Dark that any of them have indeed returned. But this doesn't seem likely to me.

What does this change?

As an advocate of something called Epic Vision, this seems to break Donaldson's rules. No one is returning to the real world: no one is bringing back to our world a better vision of what it means to be human. No one will demonstrate how what happens there is meaningful here.

However, even in simpler terms, we have to wonder what it means when everyone that the story is about is dead. If they are all dead, this must be pure fantasy; if pure fantasy, what has it all been about?

Then again, maybe we can wonder if the rules have changed.

Did Joan really summon the others? By which I mean, did she use the same ritual? Or is her summoning different for some reason?

Or is she not really dead? Remember, in WGW Lord Foul didn't really die, but it was "as if" he died as far as Covenant's summoning was concerned. So the opposite can be true: if Joan was transformed somehow upon her death, might it not be "as if" she hadn't died?

Maybe Linden or Jeremiah is clinically dead in the real world ... but they are resuscitated?

Could they go back in time to when they were alive in the real world? Would that change anything?

Is something really complicated going on which only the Timewarden understands, and that's the real reason why he had to slay Joan, so that some door has been opened for Covenant and Linden and Jeremiah that was not opened before?

Is there any hope here at all?

[Orlion]

In one of the later chapters, Covenant verifies that Jeremiah and Linden are indeed dead in the real world.

As far as info for your conundrum

[Ananda]

There was that momentary vision that Linden had in FR.

For a moment like an instant of panic in a dream, quickly forgotten, she imagined that she had been taken to a hospital; that paramedics had rushed her, sirens wailing, to a place of urgent care. Had the bullet missed her heart? But the deeper levels of her mind knew the truth.

The last sentence makes you think it was just her wishful thinking, but who knows. As you say, paddles and bringing her back from a near death experience, similar to how TC was brought back by the creator at the end of tptp. Let's just hope that it isn't easter again and ther's no doctor complaining about being pulled out of church because he doesn't believe in miracles.

[Orlion]

Who knows? Maybe Covenant went after Joan because he thought Jeremiah and Linden were dead and would thus remain. We could have a problem, then, if that weren't the case. Nice find, Ananda, it got the ol' cogs turning.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I have a slightly different take about how the Summonings work. The common understanding of the Lords is that Death changes things but I think they oversimplified things. It's not Death that matters but Will. As you said Lord Foul didn't die in the Second Chronicles yet his summons was undone (as far as Linden was concerned at least) once his power and will were diminished enough. Sure, usually people lost their will and power when they died but that was just one of several ways it happened. In tPtP Covenant was returned when Mhoram lost his will to have him there and Covenant himself left the Land after he died in his own world when he felt his role in the Land was done at the end of tPtP.

But let us look at Hile Troy. There had always been a symmetry between the happenings in TC's world and the Land. The wounds in the Land replicated the ones suffered in the other world. There is an assumption that Hile Troy died during his arrival to the Land but his transformation into a Forestal gives the lie to that. Remember, Troy 'died' from a fire and a fall from a window. Could anything be more opposite to that than becoming a living tree-being? No broken bones, no singed flesh but bark and leaves instead. It would make much more sense to assume that he was in intensive care during tIEW, unable to regain consciousness and therefore leave the Land, and entered into irretrievable coma (or became a vegetable) at the time he assumed the mantle of a Forestal. He did die eventually but that was ten years later when the Law of Life was broken during WGW.

Presence in the Land is not reflected as Death in the other world but unconsciousness. When people truly die in their own world, as Covenant did at the end of WGW and for a short time at the end of tPtP, they lose their corporal binding and become a spirit.

Joan is a curious case. I begin to suspect that if we went back to the 'real' world, we would not find her body. A big nasty lighting bolt isn't something that leaves much behind. What if it didn't kill her but instead transferred her, body and all, into the Land?

[Zarathustra]

I've always thought they were dead. Donaldson pretty much confirmed it through the GI and the text itself.

I don't think this is breaking of his rules. Which rules? Is there a quote somewhere where he said he can't write about dead people? The characters are "bringing back" messages of what it means to be human by the simple fact that we're reading about them. They were never really here. It's always been pure fantasy. Sure, the characters were from the "real" world ... but that's still true. We're still reading about "real-world" people in a fantasy context.

As for whether or not there is hope ... well, death never altered that question. We had to assume death from the very beginning. Everyone dies. If hope is only dependent upon everyone being alive, then there could never be any hope from the beginning, because 99% of all humans who ever lived are now dead. Hope has to transcend death somehow, or at least exist with it simultaneously.

[wayfriend]

Orlion, I will have to look for that quote. Sometimes Donaldson will fake to the left and then zig to the right, and so I don't know if it would prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. It may be sure knowledge, but it also may be a surmise which will prove incorrect.

(In FR, Stave seems to think that Linden won't be rebounded if Joan dies. Hence, he says, "There is hope in Hile Troy's tale. With High Lord Loric's krill, the Chosen may be able to confront her, and yet remain among us." He's saying that Linden could slay Joan and not fear rebounding. He's saying that Linden is dead in her real world. But, I think, only because Linden has convinced him of this, not from arcane insight.)

Shoe, I do believe that there's something funky going on with the way Foul used Joan to do the summonsing. It seems way too complicated. My thought is this: why worry so much over how Linden and Jeremiah are summoned if they are not going to return?

There may be another reason why Covenant killed Joan. Perhaps on one level, Thomas had to deal with Joan. But on another level, I think the Timewarden had to deal with Joan. I think that this has to do with the complication stuff. And, if it's true, then the death of the summoner must be doing something, in some way, that the Timewarden had foreseen as necessary. It's the key to something.

Also, your idea of will is interesting. We know that Joan is too insane to have a will. That she's nothing more than the tool of the Raver who rides her. This is why she can't destroy the Arch. But maybe also this is why her death doesn't release those whom she has summoned. Because it was not truly she who performed the summons. She was just the tool that was used.

Z: By rules, I mean the conventions he has previously adhered to. Covenant always went back. Then, when he had to die, he added Linden, who went back. Going back is important. The reasoning extends from his statements in Epic Fantasy in the Modern World: that Tolkien failed in something important by divorcing epic stories from the real world. Of course, I could be wrong about this, but this is why I think going back is important.

[Zarathustra]

WF, good point on going back. Maybe that's the importance this time of "Last" in the title of this Chronicles. There can be no continuing cycle (of this particular story) because no one goes back.

But I think Jeremiah in particular offers up reasons for hope that transcend the rules he has made for summonsing, etc. He has been in the land for years without ever being summoned, right? (Maybe I'm forgetting something). Anyway, he's the one person in the group who was already in the Land when the rest of them were summoned. So his summons isn't dependent upon Joan or her death.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Orlion, I will have to look for that quote. Sometimes Donaldson will fake to the left and then zig to the right, and so I don't know if it would prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. It may be sure knowledge, but it also may be a surmise which will prove incorrect.

(In FR, Stave seems to think that Linden won't be rebounded if Joan dies. Hence, he says, "There is hope in Hile Troy's tale. With High Lord Loric's krill, the Chosen may be able to confront her, and yet remain among us." He's saying that Linden could slay Joan and not fear rebounding. He's saying that Linden is dead in her real world. But, I think, only because Linden has convinced him of this, not from arcane insight.)

Shoe, I do believe that there's something funky going on with the way Foul used Joan to do the summonsing. It seems way too complicated. My thought is this: why worry so much over how Linden and Jeremiah are summoned if they are not going to return?

There may be another reason why Covenant killed Joan. Perhaps on one level, Thomas had to deal with Joan. But on another level, I think the Timewarden had to deal with Joan. I think that this has to do with the complication stuff. And, if it's true, then the death of the summoner must be doing something, in some way, that the Timewarden had foreseen as necessary. It's the key to something.

Also, your idea of will is interesting. We know that Joan is too insane to have a will. That she's nothing more than the tool of the Raver who rides her. This is why she can't destroy the Arch. But maybe also this is why her death doesn't release those whom she has summoned. Because it was not truly she who performed the summons. She was just the tool that was used.

Z: By rules, I mean the conventions he has previously adhered to. Covenant always went back. Then, when he had to die, he added Linden, who went back. Going back is important. The reasoning extends from his statements in Epic Fantasy in the Modern World: that Tolkien failed in something important by divorcing epic stories from the real world. Of course, I could be wrong about this, but this is why I think going back is important.

Those are good points. I haven't thought about the raver (which one was it?) as the summoner

[High Lord Tolkien]

I also wonder if the "Old Man" ever interacted with Jeremiah.
He seems to only talk to those that need him.
We'll find out that that Jeremiah can finally speak for himself.

[dlbpharmd]

We should remember that turiya was involved in the Summoning as well. The precedent from TPTP, in which Covenant was summoned by Foamfollower and Triock, and did not rebound on Triock's death, would lead us to conclude that there would be no rebound as long as turiya exists.

[wayfriend]

Good point, dlb! And it's a safe bet no one's going to slay a raver too easily, either.

[Zarathustra]

So am I remembering the Jeremiah issue incorrectly? Wasn't he already in the Land before the others were summoned? Who summoned him? Has it been said? My memory is probably lacking here, but I thought his ability to enter the Land was either his own power, or not yet explained.

[wayfriend]

Jeremiah seems to have visited the Land in some as-yet-unexplained way before he was summoned. There are hints that Joan did, too. And Roger would be a safe bet, given that it was possible at all.

On the one hand, this was NOT being summoned, not in the way we have come to know. For example, we know Jeremiah was not physically present. And we know that he didn't always visit during the Land's "current" time.

On the other hand, it's certainly a crossing over of some sort.

I am not sure how this fits in at all, other than as evidence that the barriers may be breaking down, and if that's happening, Donaldson can probably rationalize anything that is "different this time" should he care to go that way. In the past he has said that the breaking of the Law of Death has affected the summons ritual. Now the Law of Life is also broken, and the Law of Time is on injured reserve, so this could affect the summons ritual even more.

[Vraith]

So am I remembering the Jeremiah issue incorrectly? Wasn't he already in the Land before the others were summoned? Who summoned him? Has it been said? My memory is probably lacking here, but I thought his ability to enter the Land was either his own power, or not yet explained.

There's a difference...he was only partly in the land, "mentally" or "spiritually." [only certain powerful people were even aware of his presence]. A bit like TC was only partly there when he conversed with Mhoram, and Mhoram let him go, only long-term. Something more/extra in the power of the ritual is necessary/needs to be completed for the Land to "embody" them. I think his partaking of the ritual on the real world side initially "attuned" him, or made him aware of the Land, and his own power was how he could be semi-present. But power had to be exercised on the Land side to fully bring him over.

Bah...I see WF is already on a similar track.

Anyway, more tied to the original point: if we stay with the idea that at least part of all this is "internal" for the real-world peeps...going back isn't really necessary because everyone can participate in this kind of "reality." And perhaps we all do.

[Borillar]

One quick note:

But let us look at Hile Troy. There had always been a symmetry between the happenings in TC's world and the Land. The wounds in the Land replicated the ones suffered in the other world. There is an assumption that Hile Troy died during his arrival to the Land but his transformation into a Forestal gives the lie to that. Remember, Troy 'died' from a fire and a fall from a window. Could anything be more opposite to that than becoming a living tree-being? No broken bones, no singed flesh but bark and leaves instead. It would make much more sense to assume that he was in intensive care during tIEW, unable to regain consciousness and therefore leave the Land, and entered into irretrievable coma (or became a vegetable) at the time he assumed the mantle of a Forestal. He did die eventually but that was ten years later when the Law of Life was broken during WGW.

Yes, but recall what Covenant said in WGW when he went to say goodbye to Hile Troy after Sunder had stabbed him. It was something like, "From fire to fire." I understood this to mean that the fire that swept over Caer Caveral after being stabbed was the closure to the fire that originally killed Hile Troy. Although perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

[shadowbinding shoe]

One quick note:

But let us look at Hile Troy. There had always been a symmetry between the happenings in TC's world and the Land. The wounds in the Land replicated the ones suffered in the other world. There is an assumption that Hile Troy died during his arrival to the Land but his transformation into a Forestal gives the lie to that. Remember, Troy 'died' from a fire and a fall from a window. Could anything be more opposite to that than becoming a living tree-being? No broken bones, no singed flesh but bark and leaves instead. It would make much more sense to assume that he was in intensive care during tIEW, unable to regain consciousness and therefore leave the Land, and entered into irretrievable coma (or became a vegetable) at the time he assumed the mantle of a Forestal. He did die eventually but that was ten years later when the Law of Life was broken during WGW.

Yes, but recall what Covenant said in WGW when he went to say goodbye to Hile Troy after Sunder had stabbed him. It was something like, "From fire to fire." I understood this to mean that the fire that swept over Caer Caveral after being stabbed was the closure to the fire that originally killed Hile Troy. Although perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

Hmm, that's a good point. But maybe we can take my theory a step further and consider how Troy will look after being burned, falling from a window and spending 10 years in a coma at some low budget care facility. He was someone that had no one who cared about him much before his accident. He probably wouldn't look pretty after all that.

[wayfriend]

IMO "fire to fire" was Covenant just pointing out the poecy of the situation.

I don't think Hile had to regain his original condition to be sent back because he didn't need to be sent back.

[shadowbinding shoe]

IMO "fire to fire" was Covenant just pointing out the poecy of the situation.

I don't think Hile had to regain his original condition to be sent back because he didn't need to be sent back.

Thinking about it, the "Common understanding of the Lords" has been revealed (in FR) to be a plant be the Theomach. Their knowledge about White Gold and its source must stem from the explanations he gave Berek after Linden passed through his camp.

The Themoach obviously had an agenda here. Perhaps to encourage the Lords to look for outside-answers instead of trusting in their own power. (the Unfettered might be another example of this. This concept was well fitted to the Theomach's race but humans lacked the longevity to put it to proper use even with all the Land's gifts. Humans are communal beings and this idea drained the brightest and the best from the stream of humanity)

Connecting the summoning rituals to power and death may have strengthened such tendencies in their way of thinking.

[Zarathustra]

Damn good points, SS.