"Speculative fiction is trash."

[Horrim Carabal]

Exact quote from one of my university english profs. I wrote it down, I was so dumbfounded. Anyone else encounter this sort of attitude? This was a very learned man, lots of accolades and reputation.

[Orlion]

Exact quote from one of my university english profs. I wrote it down, I was so dumbfounded. Anyone else encounter this sort of attitude? This was a very learned man, lots of accolades and reputation.

All fiction is speculative.

Is Gulliver's Travels trash? The Iliad? Theogeny? The Divine Comedy? Paradise Lost? The Christmas Carol? The Tempest? Faustus? How about the Picture of Dorian Gray? There are plenty of classics universally recognized that even fit what your professor is trying to distinguish as different from other fiction that it shows he has not placed much thought in this matter. He's just wondering why, with his accolades and reputation, no one wants to read his stuff or what he considers great and instead read 'trash' like Harry Potter and Twilight. In non- ad hominem terms, he has allowed his opinion to be the argument and proof for the conclusion that he wants, and it shows.

[drew]

Was it at Dalhousie? A number of the professors there are fairly pretentious. Of course, I know that one of the English Profs there, writes and Publishes sci-fi!

Its so sad that people want to dictate what we can and cannot read.

I'd be curious to know what books he likes to read.

Stephen R DOnaldson himself, has spoken of this problem. HE speaks on website more than once about the prejudices that fantasy (et al.) writers face.

I believe, he tried to write an essay in college about Lord of the Rings, and was told it was not an acceptable book.

The amount of work and effort that fantasy and sci-fi writers put into their crafts, before ever sitting down and putting pen to paper should be acknowledged.

Not to mention the fact that Reading is so subjective, calling anything trash, is just ignorant.

JRR Tolkien, is second (in fiction sales) only to Charles Dickens.
How is that trash?
Jules Verne basically predicted the future in his stories! How is that Trash?
Douglass Addams wrote stories with science in them, with humour, AND with philosophy. That's not trash.

And Sure there are books out there that don't seem well written from a literary standpoint. But they also sell thousands of copies
Many critics didn't like Harry Potter; but those books got a generation of kids out from in from of the TV and reading.
The Twilight books, condemned by literary enthusiasts, have gotten teenaged girls to stop texting each other all night, and to read.
How can these be called trash?

Even if the writing is considered poor, and predictable -if thousands upon thousands of people are reading them...then they are not trash.

Automatically not liking something because it is popular, should be left to the Hipsters, talking about music. It is not for University Professors.

[Vraith]

Heh, unless it's "magical realism," then it's messages from on high.
Yea, I've met that attitude.
It's not as common as it once was.
And lets be honest with our speculative selves: Even though there's much good to say about the genre as it grew, aesthetic/literary value didn't become anyone's concern until later...most of most genres is trash, but SF was trashier and in many ways peeps liked it that way.

[all that of course ignoring the fact that O stated...it's all speculative...of course O is also wrong, or at least incomplete, cuz non fiction is mostly fiction too, especially the stuff they call "history"]

[Orlion]

[all that of course ignoring the fact that O stated...it's all speculative...of course O is also wrong, or at least incomplete, cuz non fiction is mostly fiction too, especially the stuff they call "history"]

Don't get me started on "creative nonfiction"... how is that not just fiction?

[lucimay]

Exact quote from one of my university english profs. I wrote it down, I was so dumbfounded. Anyone else encounter this sort of attitude? This was a very learned man, lots of accolades and reputation.

lots of head up his own a$$, you mean.

i wouldn't call someone who made this kind of statement 'learned".
in fact, what i would call him is ignorant. (and that's being me being nice.)

oh lordy...i better get outa this thread immediately....i can feel a "literature is literature - writing is writing" megapost lecture just ITCHING to pour forth from my angry little fingers.

make sure, horrim, to keep this ignorant a$$ far away from me...i feel the inclination to give him the back of my hand. grrrr.

[sgt.null]

any thing more complex than Harold and his Purple Crayon is trash...

words just get in the way of pure story-telling...

[Vraith]

lots of head up his own a$$, you mean.

i wouldn't call someone who made this kind of statement 'learned".
in fact, what i would call him is ignorant. (and that's being me being nice.)

oh lordy...i better get outa this thread immediately....i can feel a "literature is literature - writing is writing" megapost lecture just ITCHING to pour forth from my angry little fingers.

GO FOR IT, please? I wanna hear it. Seriously, I do.

[aliantha]

Might as well do it here, luci, where you're preaching to the choir.

Oh yeah, I've heard it, all throughout my masters program. Somebody here at the Watch recently (maybe it was luci, actually ) observed that "literary fiction" is a genre, too. Try that line on your prof, Horrim, and do let us know what colors his face turns before his head explodes.

[Shaun das Schaf]

from... www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=942

[lucimay]

lots of head up his own a$$, you mean.

i wouldn't call someone who made this kind of statement 'learned".
in fact, what i would call him is ignorant. (and that's being me being nice.)

oh lordy...i better get outa this thread immediately....i can feel a "literature is literature - writing is writing" megapost lecture just ITCHING to pour forth from my angry little fingers.

GO FOR IT, please? I wanna hear it. Seriously, I do.

well i hate to repeat myself (and it's late and i'm a bit too tired to trot out a well thought out lecture) so i'll just link you the discussion we had over in one of the erikson threads regarding this topic. i think this link will take you to the page where the discussion began and you can see how i rant on about the subject! lol. (with murrin as the voice of reason and sanity )

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... nre#856186


i sometimes get a bit overly emotional and don't make very good arguments.


oh hell, i've linked the search thread. well if you want to read the thread without the goofey orange tags on my search words you can go to the erikson forum and check out the thread called Erikson Notes & Links.
the discussion actually grew from remarks made on the first page but most of it is on the second page.


ps, wayfriend has a wonderful way of putting a good cap on the discussion! (i should put in the new skills / old skills thread that i want to win a Fickie this year! )

[wayfriend]

ps, wayfriend has a wonderful way of putting a good cap on the discussion!

I do?

I was gonna respond by saying: most writing is trash, and speculative fiction isn't special. I think 90% of everything published it isn't even worth reading, 9% is okay, and 1% makes it all worth it. If sci-fi has the same skew, why pick on it?

[lucimay]

ps, wayfriend has a wonderful way of putting a good cap on the discussion!

I do?

I was gonna respond by saying: most writing is trash, and speculative fiction isn't special. I think 90% of everything published it isn't even worth reading, 9% is okay, and 1% makes it all worth it. If sci-fi has the same skew, why pick on it?

yes, you do, or did, or whatever.

My favorite genre is "fictional fiction". But don't try to look that up - it's a fictional genre, too. The best thing about it is that the awards are fictional. "Or I Will Sell My Soul For Guilt" won a Fickie last year. No one objected.

didja not remember your Fickie post?

[aliantha]

I missed the Fickie post! Damn, now *I* want one!

[wayfriend]

Ah.

Well then:

aliantha, because the Fickies embody the genre they represent, I am sure you can figure out the easy way to get one.

[aliantha]

Yessir, I can. Let's see...gotta figure out how to work in an author in the next book...

[deer of the dawn]

ps, wayfriend has a wonderful way of putting a good cap on the discussion!

I do?

I was gonna respond by saying: most writing is trash, and speculative fiction isn't special. I think 90% of everything published it isn't even worth reading, 9% is okay, and 1% makes it all worth it. If sci-fi has the same skew, why pick on it?

And isn't all fiction speculative? I mean, even if it's not "what if people could travel through time" it's "what if a person like this acted this way".

[wayfriend]

And isn't all fiction speculative?

All fictional fiction is speculative. People often wonder if it's real. I don't know about other genres though.

[deer of the dawn]

And isn't all fiction speculative?

All fictional fiction is speculative. People often wonder if it's real. I don't know about other genres though.

I love how when Dan Brown wrote "The DaVinci Code" a surprising number of people embraced its premise as the "real" history. It was a novel, people.

[Cagliostro]

Dan Brown wasn't the first to propose that though. A lot of that talk began after the book Holy Blood Holy Grail was published. My first exposure to that whole theory was due to the third Gabriel Knight video game "Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned." I had heard of Holy Blood Holy Grail before that, but decided to read it after being fascinated by what was presented in the game (which handled the subject matter a bit better than Dan Brown did, in my opinion). All Dan Brown did was bring it to the mainstream, but it had been out there for years.