Are The Ravers She-Bane's Children?

[Zarathustra]

While rereading Illearth War, I stumbled upon this:

No, the Colossus of the Fall forbade another foe---three tree- and soil-hating brothers who were old in the Spoiled Plains before Lord Foul first cast his shadow there. They were triplets, the spawn of one birth from the womb of their long-forgotten mother, and their names were samadhi, moksha, and turiya. They hated the Earth and all its growing things, just as Lord Foul hates all life and love.

Maybe it's already been spotted and mentioned by others, but this is the first time it occurred to me.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

That is extremely plausible. It has been so long since I last read through the First and Second Chronicles--probably 15 years by now--that I had forgotten that completely.

[wayfriend]

Some discussion of this in the " Nature of Ravers" thread.

In Runes, we have this story, which is seemingly contradictory.

"Many tales are told," said Esmer, "some to conceal, some to reveal. Yet it is sooth that long before the Despiser's coming to the littoral of the Land, he had stretched out his hand to awaken the malevolence of Lifeswallower, the Great Swamp, as it lurked in the heart of Sarangrave Flat, for he delights in cruel hungers. And from that malevolence—conjoined with the rapacity of humankind—had emerged the three Ravers, moksha, turiya, and samadhi. By such means was the One Forest decimated, and its long sentience maimed, until an Elohim came to preserve its remnants.

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson also speaks a bit upon this:

"Those banes (via leakage from the roots of Mount Thunder into the Great Swamp and Sarangrave Flat) provided the energy, the magic, that gave life to the Ravers (I mean a form of "spiritual" life separate from the careless destructiveness of humankind: think of the emotions and actions of people as the raw materials, and the banes' outflow as the kindling spark)."

(03/21/2007)

My conclusion: The word "mother" may only have been metaphorical. Or Donaldson may have revised his cosmology later on.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The mother seemed to refer to the Lurker of the Sarangrave. Did AATE positively identified the Lurker as male?

[Vraith]

The mother seemed to refer to the Lurker of the Sarangrave. Did AATE positively identified the Lurker as male?

Hmmm...good question, to which I don't really know the answer.
But I'd been thinking basically in line with Z's speculation. SRD took advantage of fortuitous phrasing from TIW [in hindsight cus then he wasn't thinking about any more chronicles at all] to something slightly more literal, though not biologically literal...SHE is one of the 'banes' and participates in the innately ugly "fertility" of the Swamp...a sort of "evil womb" that gets its blood supply from SHE and the Stone and such.
[and also, in some contradiction to something in another thread, we can't dismiss the power in the streams of water...though diluted probably, it has 3 contributors to potency...Melenkurion, Glimmermere, and Andelain]
But we don't know too much of the exact timeline...does LF reaching out and awakening make him the "father" in some sense, and the Lurker just another "child" or "stepchild" of it all, like the Ravers? This makes some sense, cuz it seems the Lurker doesn't become actually "evil" until LF is in the Land [the Rhany thing, with Lurker as executioner] But because it isn't exactly clear, time-wise, LF's "awakening of the malevolance" COULD be a twisted kind of violent sexual/puberty-like stirring of the Lurker so it is the "father" of the Ravers.
So, it isn't clear...but it isn't necessarily contradictory as WF suggests.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

I'll check a bit, but it seemed to me they were initially human or approximately human, mother could be the actual human mother they had, though hard to say what powers could influence their change then. Initially, that looked to me more like their "pure" malevolence and perhaps some of the raw power present in the area - perhaps She, but likely just all the energy present.

[Zarathustra]

color=darkblue]
But we don't know too much of the exact timeline...does LF reaching out and awakening make him the "father" in some sense, and the Lurker just another "child" or "stepchild" of it all, like the Ravers? [/color]

According to the same paragraph from the Illearth War, the Ravers came into being before even the shadow of the Despiser was on the Land, much less LF himself. But it seems SRD updated that in Runes. So I think there are some contradictions, as WF says.

[Lefdmae Deemalr Effaeldm]

I think maybe not necessarily

"No, the Colossus of the Fall forbade another foe - three tree- and soil-hating brothers who were old in the Spoiled Plains before Lord Foul first cast his shadow there."

"cast his shadow" could be in the meaning of arriving himself, perhaps coming there and becoming the shadow that darkens the Land, like the one on the heart of the Elohim, his influence could be there for ages, that's not much for him, and influencing what is not exactly his is much in his manner. And it may even mean LF's residing near the Plains, not coming to the Land, though that doesn't sound not likely.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I got this:

"Yet it is sooth that long before the Despiser's coming to the littoral of the Land, he had stretched out his hand to awaken the malevolence of Lifeswallower, the Great Swamp, as it lurked in the heart of Sarangrave Flat, for he delights in cruel hungers.

"stretched out his hand" = penis
"to awaken the malevolence = got her horny
"of Lifeswallower, the Great Swamp" = Foul's wife
"as it lurked in the heart of Sarangrave Flat" = sleazy hotel
"for he delights in cruel hungers" = Foul is a kinky bastard



"cast his shadow" = not sure, could mean orgasm but it might mean "strong pimp hand"

[Zarathustra]

I think the contradiction is here:

"Many tales are told," said Esmer, "some to conceal, some to reveal. Yet it is sooth that long before the Despiser's coming to the littoral of the Land, he had stretched out his hand to awaken the malevolence of Lifeswallower, the Great Swamp, as it lurked in the heart of Sarangrave Flat, for he delights in cruel hungers. And from that malevolence—conjoined with the rapacity of humankind—had emerged the three Ravers, moksha, turiya, and samadhi. By such means was the One Forest decimated, and its long sentience maimed, until an Elohim came to preserve its remnants.

So how could they be old in the Spoiled Plains before LF first cast his shadow there, but also be the product of him stretching out his hand to awaken the malevolence that joined with human rapacity to form the Ravers?

[shadowbinding shoe]

I think the contradiction is here:

"Many tales are told," said Esmer, "some to conceal, some to reveal. Yet it is sooth that long before the Despiser's coming to the littoral of the Land, he had stretched out his hand to awaken the malevolence of Lifeswallower, the Great Swamp, as it lurked in the heart of Sarangrave Flat, for he delights in cruel hungers. And from that malevolence—conjoined with the rapacity of humankind—had emerged the three Ravers, moksha, turiya, and samadhi. By such means was the One Forest decimated, and its long sentience maimed, until an Elohim came to preserve its remnants.

So how could they be old in the Spoiled Plains before LF first cast his shadow there, but also be the product of him stretching out his hand to awaken the malevolence that joined with human rapacity to form the Ravers?

At the beginning of AATE we get a CV of Foul's life in the Land's world but the Lurker of the Sarangrave is not mentioned in it which is curious.

The Land is only mentioned in the recent back history. Before he infiltrated the Council of Lords and brought about the Ritual of Desecration, according to it, he was denied access to the upper Land by the Forestals and hid from the Ravers while building his Creche and creating unnatural monsters to serve him in the Sarangrave and Swamp. This period is described as centuries.

Before that he visited various people outside the Land ending with the last item on the list (or first): trying to rouse the Worm but failing due to the guardian.

This may sound as really the first noteworthy thing he did after his entrapment in the Creation but a few important exploits are then left unexplained. If he was prevented from visiting the upper Land by the Forestals and Interdict from the moment he came to the Land, that means the Ravers predate him there and that the human cutting of the one forest happened before he came as well (since those were the two reasons the Elohim gave the one forest the Interdict and forestals.) but that would mean the Lurker who gave birth to the ravers was already there before Foul arrived in the Land in contradiction to the quote:

Yet it is sooth that long before the Despiser's coming to the littoral of the Land, he had stretched out his hand to awaken the malevolence of Lifeswallower, the Great Swamp, as it lurked in the heart of Sarangrave Flat, for he delights in cruel hungers. And from that malevolence—conjoined with the rapacity of humankind—had emerged the three Ravers,

Why isn't this act mentioned in Foul's CV? (not to mention that wakening the Sarangrave's malevolence from afar is iffy imo. Foul is always with his target, or at least his minions are, there for him when he corrupts someone/thing) Also, it's noteworthy that the slaying of Kelenbhrabanal' the Father of Horses is missing as well. Some things are naturally left out but leaving this act out seems out of character for Covenant.

So we have to conclude that assaying the Worm and Tree were not Foul's first deeds in this world and if Linden hadn't interrupted his thought stream he would have told us more. One fallen Goddess/Ideal resides in the Land. It's not unlikely that Foul began life in this world there as well and that is when he woke the Sarangrave. The slaying of Kelenbhrabanal must have occurred at that time period as well.

Foul thought he could end things quickly if he roused the Worm but after all his failures he returned in the end to where he started it all to finish it.

[wayfriend]

Looks to me like Donaldson wants it both ways - he wants Foul to have been an influence on the Sarangrave, but he also wants this to occur before Foul supposedly arrived in the Land. The first six books locked him into the choice that Foul wasn't in the Land at that time. So he arranges for Foul to operate through some remote means - not present, but not beyond influence either. He gets what he needs for the Last Chronicles, but doesn't truly violate the exposition in the first two.

u, The Forestals denied the Ravers, but not Foul. And he didn't hide from the Ravers in his creche, just the opposite, he treated with them and brought them under his influence. "Later the Despiser established Ridjeck Thome as his seat of power, though he did not then declare himself to human knowledge. There he gathered the Ravers to his service when the Colossus began to wane." (Check out that Nature of Ravers link above.)

Foul wasn't always of such a stature. I think he started out much smaller and feebler, and grew in both power and influence over time. Which is weird, for an infinite, timeless being. But consider that infinite, timeless beings are confounded by rules and limits. It took Foul a long time to learn the rules of the Earth, and how to play the game well.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Looks to me like Donaldson wants it both ways - he wants Foul to have been an influence on the Sarangrave, but he also wants this to occur before Foul supposedly arrived in the Land. The first six books locked him into the choice that Foul wasn't in the Land at that time. So he arranges for Foul to operate through some remote means - not present, but not beyond influence either. He gets what he needs for the Last Chronicles, but doesn't truly violate the exposition in the first two.

u, The Forestals denied the Ravers, but not Foul. And he didn't hide from the Ravers in his creche, just the opposite, he treated with them and brought them under his influence. "Later the Despiser established Ridjeck Thome as his seat of power, though he did not then declare himself to human knowledge. There he gathered the Ravers to his service when the Colossus began to wane." (Check out that Nature of Ravers link above.)

Foul wasn't always of such a stature. I think he started out much smaller and feebler, and grew in both power and influence over time. Which is weird, for an infinite, timeless being. But consider that infinite, timeless beings are confounded by rules and limits. It took Foul a long time to learn the rules of the Earth, and how to play the game well.

I was going by Covenant's memories of Foul's history at the start of AATE:

From there [the time Foul he masqueraded as Lord A Jeroth], Covenant's recollection involuntarily retreated to the many centuries when Lord Foul had inhabited the Lower Land, unknown to the Council, or to any of the peoples who preceded the Lord; unrecognized by anyone except the Forestals who preserved the truncated awareness of the One Forest. During that long age, the Despiser was hampered by the Colossus of the Fall and by the fierce strength of the Forestals. Therefore he had hidden himself even from the Ravers, until the first waning of the Interdict freed them to do his bidding. Instead he bred other servants among the twisted denizens of Sarangrave Flat and the Great Swamp. and built Foul's Creche, and spawned his armies, and readied his powers - and quested unceasingly for the most useful of the banes buried deep under Mount Thunder.

So this is not really a contradiction. Foul spent a long time creating armies of twisted beings and building his fortress while hiding from the Ravers but later, around Berek's time or shortly before, when the power of the One Forest grew weak enough for a raver to posses the human king, he recruited them.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Based on the pieces I can recall, I thought that Foul originated elsewhere in the world then eventually came to The Land. During the centuries--millenia?--elsewhere he was learning lore (such as with the mysterious Demimages) so that by the time he got to The Land he was already quite powerful.

Esmer says that Foul reached out to the Lurker but I think Esmer is full of crap and I don't believe him. It makes more sense to me that the Ravers are the "children" of She and that Foul recognized them for who they are when he got there.

What I don't know is whether Foul has known who he/what he was all along or if he come to this realization during the course of pursuing lore. At the end of TPTP we saw his umbra get shattered, showing us the physical person underneath, who then reverse-aged from older-looking man to infant before disappearing. If he didn't know that he was Lord Foul (an assumed name) all along, then who was he? Would his former identity even matter?

[Iolanthe]

Foul was the brother of the Creator. When the Creator discovered that there were banes in his perfect creation, and that his brother had caused them, he threw Foul out of "heaven" or wherever, to the earth so that he was imprisoned within the Arch of Time. So Foul is the opposite of the Creator - evil v. good, God v. the Devil, the foundation of every creation story ever written. I think it was Mhoram that told it that way in the 1st Chrons. The Elohim had a different creation story.

[dlbpharmd]

The basic problem here is that SRD hasn't been able to resist the urge to retcon the Land's past. For me, this is the major problem with the Last Chronicles.

Well, that and Linden.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The basic problem here is that SRD hasn't been able to resist the urge to retcon the Land's past. For me, this is the major problem with the Last Chronicles.

Well, that and Linden.

Consider Kestenessen's wise words. To work in an imperfect world you need to use imperfect tools.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Consider Kestenessen's wise words. To work in an imperfect world you need to use imperfect tools.

He also said that in order to create "perfection" the creator needs to put a flaw into his work else it would fail. I have always believed that Foul was the flaw put into the world on purpose so that it would be "perfect".

It can be aggravating, like the Matrix--everyone has a philosophy that described reality yet all their differing views are true.

[Savor Dam]

Ahem. Kasreyn, not Kastenessen...
(always the pedant...)

[Vraith]

Consider Kestenessen's wise words. To work in an imperfect world you need to use imperfect tools.

He also said that in order to create "perfection" the creator needs to put a flaw into his work else it would fail. I have always believed that Foul was the flaw put into the world on purpose so that it would be "perfect".

It can be aggravating, like the Matrix--everyone has a philosophy that described reality yet all their differing views are true.

I can't go for that...it works against my grand theory.

But, without getting into THAT thing...LF wasn't necessary, cuz the "flaw" is in the structure...the Arch of Time, Time itself, is the necessary flaw: it guarantees death/decay/ending. [also life/growth/beginning].
The Worm is a flaw.
The shadow on the hearts of the Elohim is a flaw.
These are internal.
LF isn't internal or flaw, he's external and a threat.
The difference between dying and murder.
Between a stroke and a hammer to the skull.

But, topically, of course there's some retcon from the 1st...I don't think it's fatal cuz there was ALWAYS room for error and truth both contained in the various myths...and it makes perfect sense for SHE and Ravers to have some relationship even if not literally/directly "Mother/Child" because there is one direct flow of power from above landsdrop to below, and it passes through the banes of the earth.
And it just occurred to me that it's interesting about the Hazard...
Perhaps the Viles sensed more than they knew. Crossing over SHE led to the risks of the world. That they knew...But just maybe it went deeper, SHE's presence...subconscious, hidden, but "felt"...made them willing/caused them to be driven to take the risk in the first place.