Insequent and Unfettered

[Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg]

I'm gonna try to make this my last post for now but...has anyone ever asked and or gotten a response from SRD about the similarities between the Insequent and the Unfettered? I mean they are basically the same thing deep down.

I wonder if there is a reason for that, like the unfettered evolved into the insequent or vice versa? Or if he just missed some of the stuff from the original series that got eliminated? I know I miss the lords.

[Krilly]

I... kinda see the similarities. But also the differences.

Let me make an analogy.

Insequent are to Vain as Unfettered are to Findail.

OR

If I were to make a metaphor.

If the Land is a book, the Insequent study the words, page numbers, and syntax. While the Unfettered study the meaning and emotions expressed by the words.

[Vraith]

I don't think I've ever seen that particular one asked.
But is what you're saying true?
I'd have to think on it a bit to be sure, but first thought is that
the Insequent and Unfettered have only one thing in common: they pursue a singular goal/path/aspect.
And, among other things, we know that the Unfettered are an off-shoot of the Lords/Lore of Earthpower...the Insequent pre-date the Lords, even the slightest hint of Earthpower in people, and use a different kind of power altogether. [at least, I THINK we know those things... ]

Also: the Rite of Unfettering...whatever else it does, includes the feeling/impression of sadness/loss. Not entirely, but it is part of it.
The Insequent aren't sad/lost in separation/solitude...it is their very nature to be that way.

It seems to me, they are only the same on one surface appearance, not at all deep down.

[which doesn't address at all the authorial want or need for something like the extreme loners...that's a completely different aspect of the question, and I haven't the slightest idea.]

[rdhopeca]

IIRC Linden is the First of the Unfettered after she helps Berek in FR?

[Savor Dam]

Yes, Rob, that is correct.

Also, the Unfettered really are each on their own, while we have seen (both from the interaction between the Madoubt and the Harrow and from the whole story of the Ardent) that while each Insequent has their own calling, there is a loose community among them, some shared rules / norms, and a mechanism for collective action...none of which was true of those Loresraat students who took the rights of Unfettering rather than become Lords.

[Vraith]

Yes, Rob, that is correct.

Also, the Unfettered really are each on their own, while we have seen (both from the interaction between the Madoubt and the Harrow and from the whole story of the Ardent) that while each Insequent has their own calling, there is a loose community among them, some shared rules / norms, and a mechanism for collective action...none of which was true of those Loresraat students who took the rights of Unfettering rather than become Lords.

Linden is the first in the revised history, not the original history [but lets not get sidetracked with that stuff again.]

But I think there is a fundamental and important difference: the Unfettered pursued specific lines of Earthpower's Lore because it CALLED to them, and drew them on, at the cost of sacrifice/loss. And they would never refuse anyone.
The Insequent PURSUE from their own desires. They would, and have, refuse everyone. Until NOW. And then only because [like their bastard mirrors], they must help the world, cuz if not THEY die, too.

[wayfriend]

That, I think, is the key, Vraith. The Unfettered are selfless servants of the Land, while the Insequent are self-serving. Their lore is different as well, which may be a technicality, but their inherently different natures gave rise to their choice of lore, so in a way it's also revealing.

Unfettered means "free". But it is rather an ironic title, in that they are free ... to follow what their vision dicates. Which is to serve the Land or it's people.

Insequent means, as far as I can tell, something like "unconnected", in the sense of being neither the cause of nor the effect of anything around them. They are living non sequitors. They are free because they refuse all claims of fellowship or requirements of society.

[peter]

Wayfriends second sentance sums it up in a nutshell.

(Where can I read posts about this 'original history vs revised history'. I'm pretty anti historical revision unless there is very good reason for it and in the Chrons.... I can feel my hackles rising already!)

[Vraith]

Wayfriends second sentance sums it up in a nutshell.

(Where can I read posts about this 'original history vs revised history'. I'm pretty anti historical revision unless there is very good reason for it and in the Chrons.... I can feel my hackles rising already!)

I think might be talking about different things...[though not sure...because they overlap sometimes...]you seem to be under the impression I'm talking about "retconning" [which is only good or evil depending on how the author does it].

I'm talking about the time-travel paradoxes [actually avoiding talking about them...like the original history of the Unfettered, which had nothing to do with Linden...cuz she hadn't been there yet.]...actually avoiding talking about them. This is only one of the places such things are discussed:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=805199&highlight=paradox#805199

[Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg]

Am I about to jump into a minefield by saying, I really wish he didn't involve time travel? The fetching of the staff of law was fine, but the stuff with Roger and the Croyel, Berek and uhh Kenaustan? Is just a damn quagmire.

Once you have a character travel back in time and affect an event, you just set off a chain reaction of possibilities and paradoxes that mortal minds, mine at least, really can't fully address.

Is there only two versions of history, the unaltered and the altered? Or by the time Linden alters history, has Linden already altered history before? I mean are they changing it or fulfilling whatever role they already had or were meant to have, with their meddling? Suddenly we're down 485490230 different alternate realities and while discussing them you pass out from lack of eating and die. But would you have died if the character didn't alter history, causing you to discuss it?! Or did you always die at that point because even what seem like alterations are actually already in the magic plan?!

I feel faint.

[Vraith]

Am I about to jump into a minefield by saying, I really wish he didn't involve time travel?

IIRC there are quite a few people who wish it wasn't there...not like they can go back and fix it now, though.

I generally am not a big fan of the device myself.
But I think he did a pretty good job, some different twists/angles from the standard form.
And, considering how the world is built from the beginning, even before he knew he'd be writing further books, I don't see what else he could have done. The integrity/structure of his universe depends an Time. So, if it's going to be a big story, creation hanging in the balance, it pretty much had to do something with Time.

[wayfriend]

There're a lot of threads about time travel around. I can't do them all justice with a recap here.

However, I think it's important to say that Donaldson is being intentionally ambiguous about "time lines". It's impossible to say if Linden created a new time line, or fulfilled the one. The Theomach's comments seem to imply that timelines may diverge, and be "healed", if they are small divergences. But then, if you read his words more closely ... maybe not.

My guess is that this is probably because this is just not something he wants to explore. It's fantasy, not sci-fi. It's not a time travel story.

[Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg]

This just occurred to me too but...

I don't think there is any question that the Insequent are sort of...dicks, but unpleasant personalities aside, so far they have all come through in the end, just like the unfettered.

The Harrow takes out the Demondim in his first appearance, and stays true to the bargain he makes, even if the Ardent was forcing him, he still could have just bailed out. Theomach helps Linden immensely and ostensibly is responsible for the creation of the old lords and everything they accomplish, including the new lords.

The Mahdoubt obviously was both helpful and pleasant. Even the Vizard was responsible in the end for the haruchai making contact with the land.

If you judge them by their actions not their words, the insequent are just as if not more helpful to the people and the land than the unfettered.

Then again, we get such a small sample of Insequent to judge their whole race by...

[Savor Dam]

The Mahdoubt obviously was both helpful and pleasant.

Assuredly. As was the Ardent.

[Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg]

Right? I mean, while I have no doubt they could be huge dicks in theory, every actual action they've taken in the series has been helpful and usually kind.

The Theomach maybe could have helped Linden vs Roger and the Croyel, but also maybe not. Either way it would have been a giant history shattering fiasco probably.

Actually, when ARE the insequent? They seem to sort of exist outside the rules of time. Someone, the Ardent or Mahdoubt says that not all of them are capable of going backwords and forwards in time like that. The Theomach did his dissertation in the history of the land...

Do they all sort of come from the same damn window of time, and travel around according to their studies and powers? I mean, was the Theomach alive during Berek's time, or did he travel to it?

The Harrow is said to have no powers of time travel, thus the Mahdoubt's threat of stranding him back in time a billion years ago. But at the same time, the Harrow Interacted with the Vizard, who was killed at an unknown(?) time but presumably shortly after he mind-fucked the Haruchai, which was what, 500 years before Kevin, so a few hundred years after Berek?

The insequent are described more or less as basically just really smart humans, in the end. How the heck long do they live when they aren't traveling about in time?

All the insequent in the series so far appear to have known and crossed paths with each other, yet assuming the Theomach is the earliest one, which he can't be, their history still spans like 10,000 years?

[wayfriend]

All of the Insequent were helpful. But all of them were helpful in order to further their own interests, in one way or another. The Mahdoubt was perhaps an exception. But they are self-admittedly driven by greed, and friendless.

[Mega Fauna Blitzkrieg]

Yeah but they are also humans, and humans lie.

The Mahdoubt's greed was for service she said, so she was also ostensibly motivated by greed.

However, really, actions speak louder than words. Think of the Insequent as the cool kids in high school, but also deep down very nice kids. They come up with their stupid reason to help, so they don't lose street cred, but ultimately they are STILL helpful, despite their protests of being too cool for school.

That personality type is a pretty common cliche among tough/strong older gruffish men/father figures. RAWRRR IM A BEAR GRUMBLE GRUMBLE! But bears are still soft and huggable.

P.S. you guys first, for bear hugging.

[peter]

Can I just quickly return to the time travell thing. Is the suggestion that say, when TC first came to the Land at the beginning of LFB, Linden had *not* previousely been in the past tutoring Berek on the Seven Words etc. ie this was a different time line that had no Linden in the past.

I assumed (perhaps simplistically) that we were to assume that Linden was *always* part of the Land's past once we had read in FR(?) that she went back to Bereks time. I don't know how to construct an alternate 'timeline' for the past that then sits alongside the one where she *did not* feature in it. Is this really what SRD intended - in which case I may be even more adrift than I think I am in my understranding of what is going on.

[Vraith]

Can I just quickly return to the time travell thing. Is the suggestion that say, when TC first came to the Land at the beginning of LFB, Linden had *not* previousely been in the past tutoring Berek on the Seven Words etc. ie this was a different time line that had no Linden in the past.

I assumed (perhaps simplistically) that we were to assume that Linden was *always* part of the Land's past once we had read in FR(?) that she went back to Bereks time. I don't know how to construct an alternate 'timeline' for the past that then sits alongside the one where she *did not* feature in it. Is this really what SRD intended - in which case I may be even more adrift than I think I am in my understranding of what is going on.

Heh...there's lots of stuff, various arguments and interpretations in other threads.
What we know, indisputably, from the text: the past can change, can adjust/heal, to some extent and DID CHANGE.
Right now, for instance, there are people spread all over the world that "know" BOTH "histories" about Melenkurion splitting. That it was a battle between Linden and Roger and croyemiah, AND that it was an earthquake a few hundred years later. [all the elo know this, probably all the Insequent, but at least lots of them, TC and Linden. Probably LF [if he couldn't himself, he would know from Roger and croyemiah]

Everything else is just people trying to wrap their minds around [or come up with psuedo-logical methods for] the text-facts.
Which is entertaining of course, for some...myself included.

The problem I see with your "once Linden went back, she'd ALWAYS been there" is that it contradicts two related things we know about the world:
SMALL changes cause damage...but can be "healed."
If going back meant "change=always was," there wouldn't be any wounds/need for healing.
On the larger scale/next step up: Some things simply can't be changed without destroying the world. That wouldn't be so if "change=always was" was true either.
The Ceasure/travel/changes might be a threat/destroy SOME VERSIONS or people[s] in the "future."
But the fact of changes themselves, no matter how large/small, wouldn't hurt/destroy the world [and/or Arch] [Cuz I'm pretty sure we're told that, if big enough, it is the change itself that is the threat...not some possible future that grows out of the change.]

All the theories have problems, of course.
Cuz it ain't science, or math...it doesn't have to make real sense, only story sense.

[shadowbinding shoe]

When Covenant has the vision about Foul's Creche reversed history Foul declares that the future that contains a Time-Warden Covenant will never come to pass when he banishes him. Ie. the future can be changed even when it comes peeping into the past