What happens to Roger Covenant in the end

[chopkins]

It may just be I have a blind spot but can anyone tell me what exactly happens to Roger Covenant in the end?

[I'm Murrin]

I have to admit I'm completely blanking on what happened after he turned around and yelled at Foul for lying to him.

[iQuestor]

I have to admit I'm completely blanking on what happened after he turned around and yelled at Foul for lying to him.

Foul slapped him and he turned into a pulpy mass, dead. Also, he abruptly quit whining.

[peter]

Having just [literally minutes ago] completed reading the book I concur - Roger was pulverised into a messy omlette by a concentrated fist of Fouls might. [Fix *that* Linden.]

[dlbpharmd]

I believe the exact term was "wet pulp." It's not actually said that he was dead, but I think we can infer that he was.

[iQuestor]

I believe the exact term was "wet pulp." It's not actually said that he was dead, but I think we can infer that he was.

It was clear Roger was dead. I dont ever recall anywhere in any book that someone was rendered into a wet pulp then got up and walked it off.

[dlbpharmd]

I believe the exact term was "wet pulp." It's not actually said that he was dead, but I think we can infer that he was.

It was clear Roger was dead. I dont ever recall anywhere in any book that someone was rendered into a wet pulp then got up and walked it off.

Oh, I agree with that, but I'm used to SRD being a little more direct.

[iQuestor]

I believe the exact term was "wet pulp." It's not actually said that he was dead, but I think we can infer that he was.

It was clear Roger was dead. I dont ever recall anywhere in any book that someone was rendered into a wet pulp then got up and walked it off.

Oh, I agree with that, but I'm used to SRD being a little more direct.

agreed totally. it jarred me when I read it.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

He might have been able to withstand the attack had he still had Kastenessen's grafted-on hand but at that point he was merely mortal with no other special gift. Foul could have taunted him with a sarcastic "sucker!" but he didn't. *shrug*

Roger and the croyel were idiots, in any event. Their plan was to build a construct in which they could ride out the dissolution of the world in the Worm's wake, then walk out into Eternity. Rather than staying hidden in the Lost Deep, why didn't they teleport themselves to some other remote location once they knew that Linden and Company were on their way? Sure, they might have had to play a game of keeping one step ahead of the Harrow but that would have been to their benefit.

Other than giving Kastenessen a way to be not-quite-Elohim anymore, what was Roger's real purpose? He had no lore so he couldn't help create Kevin's Dirt. How were they doing that, in any event? Was SWMNBN just letting these males hang out in her presence and weave magic that distilled her essence into something else?

[I'm Murrin]

I'm inclined to think that Donaldson's shift from plotting every detail of the story in the First Chrons to just letting things take their course in the Last was the source of most of the issues. Given the way The Last Dark went, I'm not sure he'd even plotted out all of the ending he was aiming for.

[DoriendorCorishev]

That Roger's demise was given only a couple of sentences brings to mind the issue of whether SRD succeeded at giving this character dignity. If SRD worried that he hadn't given Davies the dignity of his character that he deserved in the Gap books, would he argue that he did so with Roger?

From the beginning of the LC, Roger becoming a monster never sat well. It actually felt unspeakably cruel to pull a "set-dressing" type character (heretofore never actually seen in the previous chrons) from TC's past and turn him into the resident psycopath. The prologue to ROTE read like a slasher film. In the end, Roger was little more than a manical killer with the hook hand (in this case, burning Elohim fist) of campfire stories. Wasn't it bad enough that Joan got claimed by Foul? But at least she was a character. Bringing Roger into the story in this way didn't feel earned.

Do we even learn anything useful about Roger? I'm not sure I can count anything that happens when he's hidden under the glamour in FR. I should probably reread FR with his true identity in mind, but to me that section of the book felt more like authorial trickery than craftily divulged character-building of Roger.

Roger's actions and plan really don't make sense. His character has never had any previous interaction with the Land -- why would his immediate reaction to being translated to a strange and magical place be to destroy and transcend that magical place? Just to get back at Daddy? That's a pretty huge leap.

In the first two Chrons, it was a pretty huge deal if anyone from the real world was translated to the Land. The way that Hile Troy, Linden, and of course TC dealt with just being in the Land were all given true depth. Even Joan, with a tortured mind and possessed by a Raver, felt like a believable scenario. But Roger is like a silly Bond villian with an overly elaborate plan to deceive Linden and destroy the world that contains spectral Dad. SRD was really stacking the deck against TC. I mean, why not just have Foul summon TC's long-dead childhood dog and have it mate with the skurj while we're at it?

With the the LC having so many themes of fathers and sons, the inclusion of pycho Roger at the very start of a four-book cyle indicates the groundwork a chronicles-long story arc of redemption or damnation of TC/Roger's relationship. The previous volumes and especially TLD simply do not pay off that promise.

[ussusimiel]

I have to admit I'm completely blanking on what happened after he turned around and yelled at Foul for lying to him.

Foul slapped him and he turned into a pulpy mass, dead. Also, he abruptly quit whining.

This, literally, had me laughing out loud!

u.

[native]

I'm inclined to think that Donaldson's shift from plotting every detail of the story in the First Chrons to just letting things take their course in the Last was the source of most of the issues. Given the way The Last Dark went, I'm not sure he'd even plotted out all of the ending he was aiming for.

This. SRD seems not to have had much idea how to end the various subplots he started.

[peter]

yes - and it showed!

[iQuestor]

I have to admit I'm completely blanking on what happened after he turned around and yelled at Foul for lying to him.

Foul slapped him and he turned into a pulpy mass, dead. Also, he abruptly quit whining.

This, literally, had me laughing out loud!

u.

[DrPaul]

I would have thought that the ultimate fates of Roger and Joan would have received more attention than they did, given their significance for Covenant personally and the fact that the lives of both had been blighted by Lord Foul (and in Roger's case he was, like Jeremiah, a child when it began). At the end of the story, Jeremiah has achieved an apotheosis, Elena has been redeemed, but Joan and Roger are both just (conveniently) dead with no indication of whether either had achieved any kind of redemption or relief.

[ussusimiel]

I would have thought that the ultimate fates of Roger and Joan would have received more attention than they did, given their significance for Covenant personally and the fact that the lives of both had been blighted by Lord Foul (and in Roger's case he was, like Jeremiah, a child when it began). At the end of the story, Jeremiah has achieved an apotheosis, Elena has been redeemed, but Joan and Roger are both just (conveniently) dead with no indication of whether either had achieved any kind of redemption or relief.

I'd say that Joan and Roger are examples of characters who have given into Despite. There is no real redemption for them, only release.

u.

[peter]

It's a shame Foul didn't have a frying pan handy for when he blatted Rodger. Shame to waste all that protein.

[dlbpharmd]

I would have thought that the ultimate fates of Roger and Joan would have received more attention than they did, given their significance for Covenant personally and the fact that the lives of both had been blighted by Lord Foul (and in Roger's case he was, like Jeremiah, a child when it began). At the end of the story, Jeremiah has achieved an apotheosis, Elena has been redeemed, but Joan and Roger are both just (conveniently) dead with no indication of whether either had achieved any kind of redemption or relief.

I'd say that Joan and Roger are examples of characters who have given into Despite. There is no real redemption for them, only release.

u.

Fair point, especially concerning Roger, who was of a sound mind and fully embraced Despite. But what about poor, insane Joan?

[ussusimiel]

Fair point, especially concerning Roger, who was of a sound mind and fully embraced Despite. But what about poor, insane Joan?

It may seem a bit harsh, but Joan gave into Despite when she abandoned TC at the start of LFB. She did it for the wrong reasons and subsequently knew it. Yes, she never really got a chance to redeem herself, but that, in a way, is an extension of her own self-judgement (aka Despite).

u.