Man's Man, Woman's Woman, Human's Human?

[Vraith]

I thought about putting this in the 'tank or elsewhere...
mod's can move it if it goes all wonky.
but it's not meant to be debate/argument exactly...

Anyway, in another topic, Zarathustra said:
"And as a straight male, I find blatant flaunting of homosexuality off-putting and gross, and I think effeminate men (straight or not) to be annoying, and not sympathetic as characters in stories."
Ignore the "blatant flaunting" stuff...or take it to another thread. I just included it for clarity/completeness.
What I'm curious about:
What is "effeminate?"
What do people think qualifies as a "manly" or "womanly" characteristic?

Curious thing: I just invented a word...if someone really knows Latin, they can point out how I should really form/derive it, cuz it is awkward as it stands...efvirilate. Cuz AFAIK, and I know a LOT of freaking words, there is no exact antonym for "effeminate." [which comes from the Latin "ex" and "famina"] There are SLANG terms with kinda-sorta similar meanings. But effeminate has a long history, a solid etymology, and a precise meaning. Why is it so freaking important? Why isn't its opposite? Y'all can address that if you like...

But I'm really wondering...what is manly/womanly, why do you think so, and who the hell gets to decide? The word effeminate has a precise definition...but the characteristics that QUALIFY one for fitting that definition...what the hell are they?
As a start off point of contention, possibly [heh...an inciting incident?]
I happen to know a big strapping studly SOB [well...he's a little squishier nowadays, a soft layer covering everything] Career Special Forces guy.
He LOOKS at you, you suspect he could kill you. You'd be right...except if you caught him looking at you he's already decided to let you live.

100% pure gay, [though you'd never guess it unless you got to be a good friend and he told you.] Not because he's HIDING it [though he did in the service...it wasn't allowed then], his hobbies and preferences [except for mates] really are all man's man things.
Fun anecdote on that: the only profession [from my personal experience, hence anecdote] with more gay men, as a percentage, than those high-risk military units is dancer.
Manly or not? Why? [or not?]
I also know a guy, wanted to be an actor. Reasonably good looking [I think...] Not "buff," but definitely male. Tall. Working-dude hands. And...ummm...an anatomical feature that couldn't be obscured by ordinary clothing. Damn good actor, probably the best I've ever personally known...could only get cast as gay, [which meant very limited work, despite the prevailing opinion that gay men rule Hollywood] cuz of the pitch of his voice.
Manly, or not?

Feel free, anyone who cares to, to add in the woman side. Especially if you happen to BE a woman.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

These are all going to mean different things to different people from different generations and/or cultures.

[SoulBiter]

effeminate = as a female. My younger brother is Gay. He has been effeminate as long as I can remember and longer than he knew he was Gay. Throws like a girl, runs like a girl...is not effeminate vocally but otherwise fits the bill.

The thing is, all Gays aren't effeminate. If someone didn't tell you they were Gay, or they didn't do something that 'outed' them, you wouldn't know it. But on the other side, no all effeminate guys are Gay. I know of a few effeminate guys who are straight, married, have children and AFAIK arent interested in guys in that way.

Now.. I have to say as Z said in the other thread, overly effeminate guys annoy me. I dont know why.. it just does. Grates on my nerves, just like screaming kids at Walmart LOL.

[Rau Le Creuset]

Gary Cooper in the film "High Noon" playing the character Will Kane. That is Man stuff. I think.

[Dread Poet Jethro]

Anyone want to
Give a counterexample
Of female valor?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Michelle Yeoh as Yu Shu Lien from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Her character runs her own security firm guarding merchant caravans and is a fierce fighter yet still in love with Li Mu Bai; she is honorable, trustworthy, and really tries to be a great older sister to Jen Yu.

Miranda Otto's Eowyn from the Lord of the Rings movies. Again, a tough fighter but not afraid to show her feelings first for Aragorn then for Faramir even though she will soon have to assume the throne of Rohan. She delivered the killing blow against the Witch King after her arm got broken.

The mezzo-soprano from college used to say that anything she did was either "feminine" or "feminist" simply because she was doing it. I could not fault her logic then and I find no fault with it to this day.

[Rau Le Creuset]

Is female valor different than male valor or are they pretty much the same things? I'm thinking examples of female valor may include different qualities.

[Vraith]

Is female valor different than male valor or are they pretty much the same things? I'm thinking examples of female valor may include different qualities.

They might. It's a big topic if folk start trying to parse it.

I think woman, in general, are far more valorous in both quantity and quality.
Most male "valor" wouldn't even exist if it weren't for other men with "valor" trying to kill each other.