Was Holt evil?
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dANdeLION
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Hold on a minute while I reread the series......No, not evil, but definitely strange. No, wait a minute, I missed a spot. Oh, definitely yes. Utterly evil, and no fashion sense. How dastardly. Wait a minute, which one was Holt?Darth Revan wrote:Though he would have done anything to achieve his goals... So he might have been... But I liked him...
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dANdeLION
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Yes. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have been it the Gap series.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
*
* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
* * This post carries Jay's seal of approval
I'd say he was as evil as they come.
He placed his own personal goals above the welfare of... well... the entire human race. The 'uneasy peace' he created allowed trade and riches to fall into his pockets while he searched for a way to live forever... but what was the final cost of that? Mankind's defenses had became dangerously stagnent.
By the end of the Gap series, the Amnion had:
1.) Progressed quite far in creating methods of accelerating their ships to .9c.
2.) Created air-borne mutagens.
3.) Become increasingly adept at transforming humans which could blend-in with humanity (and worse, maintain their grasp on 'human' concepts).
4.) Created delayed-response mutagens.
5.) Created methods of instantanious communication.
And mankind? It had an immunity drug. That research was originally disbanded by Holt... only Dios' influence allowed the research to be completed. And, if Calm Horizens had but a single gap courier drone, the Amnion have that formula.
Due to Holt's mechanizations, I can't help but wonder if humanity isn't still doomed at the end of the series. Though the Amnion have a manufacturing disadvantage, they had progressed much further than humans. Their genetic imperative never paused for power-struggles... never stopped seeking a way to turn all humans (all beings!) into Amnion.
I feel that if another book had been written in the series, it would have depicted an immediate full-scale offensive by the Amnion on the disorganized humans. The loss of Holt (as commander of human space) did them more damage than anything else.
In this light, can he be seen as anything other than evil? (And this doesn't even take into account what the man did to his own mother!)
Holt had ambition... that's sometimes an admirable trait. But his ambitions centered only on himself, to the detriment of all mankind.
He placed his own personal goals above the welfare of... well... the entire human race. The 'uneasy peace' he created allowed trade and riches to fall into his pockets while he searched for a way to live forever... but what was the final cost of that? Mankind's defenses had became dangerously stagnent.
By the end of the Gap series, the Amnion had:
1.) Progressed quite far in creating methods of accelerating their ships to .9c.
2.) Created air-borne mutagens.
3.) Become increasingly adept at transforming humans which could blend-in with humanity (and worse, maintain their grasp on 'human' concepts).
4.) Created delayed-response mutagens.
5.) Created methods of instantanious communication.
And mankind? It had an immunity drug. That research was originally disbanded by Holt... only Dios' influence allowed the research to be completed. And, if Calm Horizens had but a single gap courier drone, the Amnion have that formula.
Due to Holt's mechanizations, I can't help but wonder if humanity isn't still doomed at the end of the series. Though the Amnion have a manufacturing disadvantage, they had progressed much further than humans. Their genetic imperative never paused for power-struggles... never stopped seeking a way to turn all humans (all beings!) into Amnion.
I feel that if another book had been written in the series, it would have depicted an immediate full-scale offensive by the Amnion on the disorganized humans. The loss of Holt (as commander of human space) did them more damage than anything else.
In this light, can he be seen as anything other than evil? (And this doesn't even take into account what the man did to his own mother!)
Holt had ambition... that's sometimes an admirable trait. But his ambitions centered only on himself, to the detriment of all mankind.
Excellent post! But I really liked Holt... I don't know why... but I did... He wanted to live forever... what's wrong with that? heh. And he permitted all the bad things to take place because he had scorn for his own kind... and didn't think them worthy to go on living... and in a way I agree with him... And the Amnioni won the war eventually... though some may despise that concept... but if there was another book... the Anmioni would have won it... Holt saw that... And I think he was right.Viridian wrote:I'd say he was as evil as they come.
He placed his own personal goals above the welfare of... well... the entire human race. The 'uneasy peace' he created allowed trade and riches to fall into his pockets while he searched for a way to live forever... but what was the final cost of that? Mankind's defenses had became dangerously stagnent.
By the end of the Gap series, the Amnion had:
1.) Progressed quite far in creating methods of accelerating their ships to .9c.
2.) Created air-borne mutagens.
3.) Become increasingly adept at transforming humans which could blend-in with humanity (and worse, maintain their grasp on 'human' concepts).
4.) Created delayed-response mutagens.
5.) Created methods of instantanious communication.
And mankind? It had an immunity drug. That research was originally disbanded by Holt... only Dios' influence allowed the research to be completed. And, if Calm Horizens had but a single gap courier drone, the Amnion have that formula.
Due to Holt's mechanizations, I can't help but wonder if humanity isn't still doomed at the end of the series. Though the Amnion have a manufacturing disadvantage, they had progressed much further than humans. Their genetic imperative never paused for power-struggles... never stopped seeking a way to turn all humans (all beings!) into Amnion.
I feel that if another book had been written in the series, it would have depicted an immediate full-scale offensive by the Amnion on the disorganized humans. The loss of Holt (as commander of human space) did them more damage than anything else.
In this light, can he be seen as anything other than evil? (And this doesn't even take into account what the man did to his own mother!)
Holt had ambition... that's sometimes an admirable trait. But his ambitions centered only on himself, to the detriment of all mankind.
Oops... I forgot about the kazes he sent. And the way he destroyed competitors as SMI rose to power.
Yep... that sucker's evil.
A less-effective version of Foul.
The Amnion present such a danger because they're so unified. There will never be an Anmion tratior. But this is also their greatest weakness... an incapacity to see 'outside the box'. This stagnates their research.
Under Min Donner's leadership (and the council), mankind will (in time) pull itself together and begin to catch up to (and eventually surpass) the Amnion in technology and fleet-power. The Amnion dare not wait (if they are aware of the events which took place in TDAGD at all) and must launch a full-scale offensive.
I think the next book, had it been written, would have been interesting.
Yep... that sucker's evil.
A less-effective version of Foul.The Amnion present such a danger because they're so unified. There will never be an Anmion tratior. But this is also their greatest weakness... an incapacity to see 'outside the box'. This stagnates their research.
Under Min Donner's leadership (and the council), mankind will (in time) pull itself together and begin to catch up to (and eventually surpass) the Amnion in technology and fleet-power. The Amnion dare not wait (if they are aware of the events which took place in TDAGD at all) and must launch a full-scale offensive.
I think the next book, had it been written, would have been interesting.
Like Holt said. Humankinds ability for fast manufacturing would give them the advantage on the short term... but over the long haul... that would prove to be an illusion...Viridian wrote:Under Min Donner's leadership (and the council), mankind will (in time) pull itself together and begin to catch up to (and eventually surpass) the Amnion in technology and fleet-power. The Amnion dare not wait (if they are aware of the events which took place in TDAGD at all) and must launch a full-scale offensive.
The fact is that Humankind will never surpass the Amnioni in technology... because the Amnioni are so much smarter than Human kind are. Holt saw this. He was smart enough to see it. Where as the rest of the losers in the Gap are too blind to see it.
I would have to disagree.
Humans, on the other hand, are individually diverse. Different backgrounds and abilities to draw upon. This is the most fertile ground possible for scientific advancement. Minds which can look at a problem from different points of view.
Given time, human advances would outstrip Amnion advances as long as a concentrated force does not hold them back (like Holt). (The Amnion did specialize in genetic manipulation, and were far ahead of humanity in that field, but Vector and his crew at Intertech caught up rather quickly. Had their research continued, who knows what they might have created?)
Will the Council and Min hold back? Most certainly not... especially not after Calm Horizens' kindly visit. Ships will be cranked out at top speed; the mutagen immunity drug will be mass produced. Research specifically directed at the destruction of the Amnion will commence.
Had Holt not interfered, humanity would have been in no serious danger from the Amnion.
This is why I believe the Amnion, at the close of TDAGD must stage a full-scale assault against humanity. Mankind is still weak and disorganized from Holt's influence... but that will all change rather quickly. From the Amnion point-of-view, the window to attack is now. Hit Earth with five Behemoth-class warships at .9c. Then start taking the stations apart one by one.
If the Amnion delay... they're finished... they have nothing to hope for.
A sidenote: I love these type discussions! This is sooooo cool. When I speak to my wife of such things her eyes just kinda glaze over and she quickly finds a reason to go shopping.
As far as I know, there was never any indication that the Amnion were more intelligent than humans... just more unified in their goals. They were certainly not as creative as humans. Their unity holds them back at the creative level.The fact is that Humankind will never surpass the Amnioni in technology... because the Amnioni are so much smarter than Human kind are.
Humans, on the other hand, are individually diverse. Different backgrounds and abilities to draw upon. This is the most fertile ground possible for scientific advancement. Minds which can look at a problem from different points of view.
Given time, human advances would outstrip Amnion advances as long as a concentrated force does not hold them back (like Holt). (The Amnion did specialize in genetic manipulation, and were far ahead of humanity in that field, but Vector and his crew at Intertech caught up rather quickly. Had their research continued, who knows what they might have created?)
Again, I have to disagree. I believe the reverse would be true. The Amnion manufacturing methods are more precise, but slower. In a military conflict, this precision can be overwhelmed by the advantages of numbers. Over the long haul, humanity's manufacturing abilities would replace lost ships quicker than the Amnion could. Again, Holt held back humanity, keeping only enough ships to maintain the truce... never enough to comfortably win a war.Humankinds ability for fast manufacturing would give them the advantage on the short term... but over the long haul... that would prove to be an illusion...
Will the Council and Min hold back? Most certainly not... especially not after Calm Horizens' kindly visit. Ships will be cranked out at top speed; the mutagen immunity drug will be mass produced. Research specifically directed at the destruction of the Amnion will commence.
Had Holt not interfered, humanity would have been in no serious danger from the Amnion.
This is why I believe the Amnion, at the close of TDAGD must stage a full-scale assault against humanity. Mankind is still weak and disorganized from Holt's influence... but that will all change rather quickly. From the Amnion point-of-view, the window to attack is now. Hit Earth with five Behemoth-class warships at .9c. Then start taking the stations apart one by one.
If the Amnion delay... they're finished... they have nothing to hope for.
A sidenote: I love these type discussions! This is sooooo cool. When I speak to my wife of such things her eyes just kinda glaze over and she quickly finds a reason to go shopping.
You clearly have a good opinion of humans Viridian... Which is fair enough 
But I do not... So I must disagree with you... I think that the Amnioni are the superior race... in most ways... but all I'm saying is that the Amnioni were more intelligent than human kind... It is mentioned several times throughtout the series...
Min and Council will hold back... as is said at the end of book five...
Also... humans badly overestimate how strong they are... they do not see their obvious weakness... All it took is one Amnioni ship to threaten everything in our solar system... not in Human Space... but everything near Earth...
So humans are the weaker race in the long haul... Amnioni will eventually discover how to make Amnioni look like humans... And then humans will be wiped of the face of the galaxy... as it should be.
But I do not... So I must disagree with you... I think that the Amnioni are the superior race... in most ways... but all I'm saying is that the Amnioni were more intelligent than human kind... It is mentioned several times throughtout the series... Min and Council will hold back... as is said at the end of book five...
Also... humans badly overestimate how strong they are... they do not see their obvious weakness... All it took is one Amnioni ship to threaten everything in our solar system... not in Human Space... but everything near Earth...
So humans are the weaker race in the long haul... Amnioni will eventually discover how to make Amnioni look like humans... And then humans will be wiped of the face of the galaxy... as it should be.
Actually, I'm fairly pessimistic about humanity.You clearly have a good opinion of humans Viridian... Which is fair enough
It begs the question; If the Amnion are smarter, why haven't they overcome humanity already? Why do they suffer the uneasy peace when genetic imperialism is within reach? Given a significant advantage, I don't think the Amnion would hesitate.
Ahh... the humans were caught with their pants down, weren't they?All it took is one Amnioni ship to threaten everything in our solar system...
I asked myself the same question the first time I read the series; Why the hell didn't the Amnion do this sooner? Even if they only have, say, 12 Behemoth-class defensives (and that seems conservative) and expect to lose one on each engagement... there's only about 9 human stations!Not to mention why can't the humans place some super-light proton projectors on their stations... good grief!
Perhaps they go along with the truce while they make their position impossible to resist.
Oh yeah, while looking through TDAGD I got sucked into the book again and had to finish it. I ran across a sentence where Marc Vestibule mentions Calm Horizens didn't have any gap courrier drones.
That, in itself, is rather strange... is it not? A ship that size?
Was Holt evil? Think about it this way: if someone is willing to surrender the lives of every human being so that he could live forever, would that not be considered evil? If you think that the eradication of human-kind is an acceptable goal, what in the name of all that is holy would you consider evil? How much farther could you possibly go? The guy wanted the mutagen immunity drug stopped so that humanity would not have an effective defense against the Amnion. Why? Entirely for his own personal gain. How could you possibly say that this is not evil? What would it take for you to consider a person evil?
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Dragonlily
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The amnion ships had those instantaneous communication things, like Milos was using on Soar during the hunt for Trumpet.Veridian wrote:I ran across a sentence where Marc Vestibule mentions Calm Horizens didn't have any gap courrier drones.
That, in itself, is rather strange... is it not? A ship that size?
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Loredoctor
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The Amnion are 'smarter' in the sense that they can impart their knowledge far more effectively than any human method. ie, the way they pass memories onto their young and force grow them. This removes the whole element of education in their society and allows them to keep the brilliant minds in society. The only reason they are not greater than humanity in a militaristic and economic sense is because: a. the extraction of ores and the growing/production of their technology is expensive and slow - thus their industrial capacity is slower than humanity. b. by extension of this, the amnion rely upon humanity to gain their resources (ores). In time the amnion will reach a level of technology where they can do without humanity's industry - and we can see that happening in the GAP series with their developments. HUmanity at its greatest has produced Gap travel, amazing cybernetic technology (witness the welded Angus) and some powerful ships. On the other hand, look at what the amnion had produced: near-C vessels, more powerful vessels, instantaneous communication, the super-light proton cannon, a more efficient society and almost god-like manipulation of genetics. In my opinion, the amnion are smarter.
Last edited by Loredoctor on Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not as much as meActually, I'm fairly pessimistic about humanity.
The Amnioni are smarter... Do not doubt... I have read itIt begs the question; If the Amnion are smarter, why haven't they overcome humanity already? Why do they suffer the uneasy peace when genetic imperialism is within reach? Given a significant advantage, I don't think the Amnion would hesitate.
They haven't overcome humanity because they would be too unsure of success... Just because one is smarter... doesn't mean one can beat anyone... I mean look at the science geeks... they get beaten up by the dumbass' in real life all the time Ahh... the humans were caught with their pants down, weren't they?
No, because Warden ordered all the ships back to Earth defense. They were as ready as they could ever have been in that situation.
Because they want genetic superiorty. Not the blow and smash approach.I asked myself the same question the first time I read the series; Why the hell didn't the Amnion do this sooner? Even if they only have, say, 12 Behemoth-class defensives (and that seems conservative) and expect to lose one on each engagement... there's only about 9 human stations!
I think what Holt did, or rather tried, to do is enough to give sufficient explantion there.Not to mention why can't the humans place some super-light proton projectors on their stations... good grief!
Yes... that's what I thoughtPerhaps they go along with the truce while they make their position impossible to resist.
It didn't need them... It had those SCRT or whatever they're called.Oh yeah, while looking through TDAGD I got sucked into the book again and had to finish it. I ran across a sentence where Marc Vestibule mentions Calm Horizens didn't have any gap courrier drones.
That, in itself, is rather strange... is it not? A ship that size?
Wrong. Calm Horizens did need gap courrier drones. The SCRT didn't have the necessary range to reach Amnioni space. The conversation between Sorus and Milos in CAO proves this.It didn't need them... It had those SCRT or whatever they're called.
The SCRT was not viable for long-distance communication. This is the reason I thought it odd that Calm Horizens didn't have any drones."You told me you can get us help when we need it. You didn't say anything about having to wait days."
Milos studied her. Like his eyes, his emotions - if he had any - were hidden.
"The contact is instantaneous. I am able to transmit and receive communication without measurable delay. The device which makes this possible was brought aboard from the defensive after the destruction of Tanatos Minor. At present its range has not been perfected beyond 2.71 light-years. For that reason Calm Horizens began an encroachment into human space when we set course for this system."
No, human space was not as ready as it could be for an Amnion incursion. Warden got jumpy and began to order ships back, but he did not envision an Amnion Behemoth jumping in.No, because Warden ordered all the ships back to Earth defense. They were as ready as they could ever have been in that situation.
And note that he gave orders to withhold fire until they got up close and personal because he felt he could reason with them (and thus reduce the damage).
As far as human installations mounting super-light proton projectors:
Holt used matter cannon coupled with lasers. He didn't have a super-light proton. Sufficient explanation does not exist for the absence of this most effective weapon on human stations (UMCPHQ if not UMCHO).I think what Holt did, or rather tried, to do is enough to give sufficient explantion there.
There is a blurb (somewhere) that mentions why UMCP ships (Intransigent in this case) did not mount super-proton projectors due to power requirements, but a station like UMCPHQ seems like it would be within reach.
