The creators choices

[Sivit na-Morham]

Throughout the Chronicles those who are summoned are chosen by the creator. The exception to this may (or may not) be Hile Troy. In LFB I thought that the summons coinsided with the desires of the creator. But Hile Troy does not refer to an old man on an ocher robe that I recall. He was dying or about to on the burning building when he was summoned. But then Linden was Chosen as was TC. Is it possible or even likely that summonings cannot take place without the approval of the creator? Or must the summons be answered, but the creator gets to pick?

Sivit

[Rockbrother]

Greetings. This is my first time here. A wonderful site, obviously a labor of love.

I always looked at the creator as existing beyond the two worlds. He could reach into 'our world' but the Arch prevented him from doing the same in the land. So I think his only role was to choose Covenant. I never thought he had control over whethter or not someone could be summoned. If my memory serves (and it has been awhile) I think there was a passage somewhere that talks about how the creator would be helpless if all Foul wanted to do was rule over the land instead of bring white gold in to destroy it.

Which only goes to prove the old cliche: Being a god ain't all its cracked up to be.

[Vain]

Greetings. This is my first time here. A wonderful site, obviously a labor of love.

Love is never a labour It's a communal effort


If you're starting reading the Chrons again, then the Dissecting the Land may be a good place to start

[Davin]

I would think, that since any summons has to cross between worlds, that the Creator has the power to affect them. Foul (or anyone else within the Land) is reaching through or beyond the Arch of Time to reach someone. That would allow the Creator to affect who or what that summons reaches. It also seemed that the Creator knew a summons was going to occur before it did, which again indicates some strange interaction with the Arch of Time... or perhaps the Creator is simply "all knowing" or outside time where everything happens all at once or something. <shrug> Just because Hile Troy did not see or encounter an old man in a robe does not mean the Creator did not have a hand in his summons. After all, if Covenant or Linden (with the ring) can refuse or hold off a summons or recall, the Creator would surely be able to flatly refuse one from suceeding... in my opinion anyway.

Now, perhaps someone would like to discuss the apparent morality of the manner and method of the Creator choosing someone without giving them any knowledge or choice in the matter? Or, is the Creator, like the Elohim, beyond normal human definitions of such things?

Davin

[CovenantJr]

I've been reading through bits of the books lately, and I read a passage, only days ago, that explained the reason the Creator was able to choose TC. It was because the Staff of Law (which was the instrument of the summoning) was actually being wielded by Drool Rockworm, with guidance from Foul. Drool's grasp of the mechanics of using the Staff's power was very tenuous, so he was unable to choose a specific target for the summoning. That was the only reason the Creator was able to interfere. I would imagine that the Creator had the opportunity to choose Linden because Foul wasn't expecting someone to pursue Covenant into the circle.

I'll try and track down the exact passage, so I can quote it here...

[Hile Troy]

I think the Creator had his will involved in all the summonings. I don't feel he is that impersonal not to.

LFB - Covenant summoned by Drool Rockworm and the Staff of the Law

TIW - Covenant summoned by the Lords. While Hile was summoned by an failed attempt of Atiaran to resummon Covenant.

TPTP - Covenant summoned by Triock and Foamfollower.

TWL - Covenant and Linden summoned by Lord Foul's machinations.

Yes, I do find it puzzling that Hile Troy saw no visions of a vagrant wearing ochre robes but than again Covenant didn't see the vagrant (Creator?) either with every summoning.

[CovenantJr]

Covenant had no need to see the beggar/Creator before every summoning. The Creator only needed to choose him once. After that, the people of the Land would, of course, summon whoever was summoned originally, in this case TC. So I believe the Creator only had a hand in TC's first summoning.
And there was no need for the Creator to repeatedly warn TC about the Land and Foul - I'm sure both the old man and Covenant himself would have got sick of hearing it... Beggar: "Yet again, be true, blah blah, can we skip this bit?" TC: "Yeah, i got it the first time"

[Hile Troy]

Excellent points CovenantJr!

Now was Hile Troy destined to fail militarily or had he been simply overwhelmed by the Giant-Raver's great army? I ask these questions because it may hold the key as to why Hile Troy was chosen.

Afterall, poor sorrid Atiaran was surely manipulated by Foul. If Hile was chosen by the Creator than he only exposed his mortal limits and failed. But in the grand shaping of things, the Creator now has a new forestal serving the Land. Did Hile truly fail?!

[amanibhavam]

I think HT himself gives the reason. Somewhere along he says something along the lines: I am a person who backs into corners and then pays everything to get his promises fulfilled.
The Creator needed a person who would sacrifice him/herself to become a Forestal. Again, HT had been chosen for who he was, his personality.

[Hile Troy]

Yes, Hile Troy, in a sense, sold his soul to help save his quickly diminishing army and was very key in redeeming the Land from Foul's terrible might. The destruction of the Giant-Raver's armies in Garroting Deep had the greatest military importance and surely lent to 'Mhoram's victory' later on.

[CovenantJr]

I think Troy was chosen because only he was capable of saving the Warward and, at the same time, destroying Flesharrower's army.
The Land needed someone who could not only mastermind and execute such a daring plan, but ultimately sacrifice himself to save his army. Only Troy had the combination of tactical skills, courage and self-sacrifice that provided the Warward's only means of victory. And as a bonus, the Land aquired a new Forestal. Yes, I'm convinced the Creator must have chosen Troy. Or it was all just a very fortunate coincidence...

[Tohrm]

I am not going to say that the creator did have a hand in all of the choices made. He supposedly has made "mistakes" by letting LF introduce the banes into the land. So just by that, he has proven himself to not be omniscient or omnipresent. So it is entirely possible when Atiaran was attempting to summon TC, that the summoning just kind of sort of slipped by the creators notice. Or it is also possible that the creator knew that she was summoning TC, but a little monkeywrench got thrown in by LF (although he never even intimated any knowledge about it which would be highly unusual for him, especially the way he gloats) that threw the choice of the summoning off.

[Lord Mhoram]

Either that, or he wanted HT to come to the Land. Remember he was important to the Lands history and helped the Land progress.

The Creator SAW everything, but just couldnt act every time. The banes LF brought to the Land after he was trapped couldnt be prevented by the Creator.

[danlo]

Which came 1st the banes or LF? I always thought the banes were tossed in the Creator's "cauldron" and where hidden in the Land b4 LF came...but I could b wrong...probably a moot point, anyway.

[Lord Mhoram]

Im talking about banes like the Illearth Stone....

[Davin]

If I recall correctly, Foul introduced the Banes to the creation and this was why the creator cast him into the Land and inside the Arch. I'll have to dig out my books and verify, but it almost sounded as if Foul was some sort of quasi-brother to the creator. How the creator was able to cast him within the Arch is a bit of a problem for me. If Foul indeed had powers of creation/destruction/whatever that allowed him to affect the formation of the Land, he should have been able to formulate an easier means of escape. Unless of course, his power was reduced by being within the Arch.

Davin

[danlo]

Yes Davin has backed up my point mhoram--even the Illearth stone had 2 be found--LF placed them there before hand and didn't bring any with him...that I can recall.