The DCEU and the MCU

[aTOMiC]

I prefer Coke over Pepsi, but I'll drink Pepsi if that's the only option.

I prefer Burger King over McDonalds but sometimes I'm just in the mood for a Quarter Pounder.

I prefer Ford over Chevrolet but at the end of the day I can say there are cars produced by both companies I'd buy.

I prefer Marvel over DC but Superman and Batman are two of my favorite comic characters of all time.

We all have our preferences and they might seem somewhat arbitrary but there are always reasons why we choose one thing over another.

The DCEU and the MCU enjoy a competition that has existed between DC comics and Marvel Comics going back half a century or more. Fans of comics love all comics but human nature insists that we have preferences and thus sides are drawn for battle like the heroes and villains we enjoy reading about.

The current state of superhero themed films has placed me in a odd position. I earnestly want to like and enjoy all the films being produced by both companies but sadly, because of my individual and natural tastes, it is impossible.

If we back away from the restrictions of the current film universes, superhero films were evaluated far differently than they are today.
When I was a kid I was at the theater when the first Christopher Reeve Superman film appeared and I loved it.
I loved Superman II.
I liked Superman III.
I tolerated Superman IV.
I actively disliked Supergirl.
I loved Tim Burton's first Batman film.
I liked Batman Returns.
I mostly enjoyed Batman Forever.
I tolerated Batman and Robin.
Heck I actually enjoyed both Swamp Thing movies.

At this point DC superhero movies were the only game in town and most of the time I ate it up with a spoon and it didn't bother me all that much that Marvel wouldn't or couldn't release films of their characters, though I remember wondering why not?

Then came the Sam Raimi Spiderman film which I loved (in spite of the crappy Green Goblin costume).
I loved the first X-Men film.
I actively disliked the Ben Affleck Daredevil film.
I loved Spiderman II.
I loved X2.
I liked Spiderman III.
I liked X3.
I was disappointed by Ang Lee's HULK.
I HATED Catwoman.
I HATED Elektra.
Then I LOVED Batman Begins.
I tolerated the first Fantastic Four and felt similarly about FF2.
I generally disliked the first Ghost Rider and hated the second.
Then I LOVED The Dark Knight.
I liked Superman Returns.
I very much liked The Dark Knight Rises.

Then came the MCU and for the most part I can't say I disliked any of the films ranging from The Incredible Hulk all the way to Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Though some of the MCU films were great I found others to be only good but never bad.

Then after the Avengers film hit like a meteor impact it seemed DC/Warner Brothers was motivated to follow suit and released Man of Steel to usher in their new shared universe.
I liked Man of Steel (I absolutely LOVED the first act featuring Zod and Jor El on Krypton) but there was something off about the film that made it seem like somewhat of a disappointment. "Superman films aren't supposed to be this grim" I was thinking at the time but I figured they were taking things in a new direction and I'd see where it went.

Then came Batman vs Superman and truthfully I found myself, for the first time, feeling bored and annoyed by a superhero film featuring two of my favorite characters. Putting Batman in an Iron Man suit, complete with lighted eyes made me sick. In general though It just seemed a little flat, confused, maybe even a bit stupid and the finale turned into a CGI slog that really, vigorously turned me off. (By the way I hated the end of the Incredible Hulk for similar reasons).

At this point I'm finding its really easy to embrace the MCU and begin to actively dislike the DCEU thanks to two mediocre films in a row. Is it Zack Snyder? Its it interference from Warner Brothers? What the hell is going on?

Then Suicide Squad completes the trifecta of disappointment and I'm wondering why this keeps happening. I'm not an outsider. I have loved DC characters and movies since I was 13 years old but this whole thing is depressing me.

To be fair comparing 15 Marvel films to 3 DC films isn't all that fair but that's all there is so far.

DC started out as Coke but I have to confess that now its abundantly clear that the DCEU is Pepsi.

Even if Wonder Woman and Justice League break free of the pattern set by the first three films I can't imagine them being so good that all will be forgiven over night.

There's no equal ground here, at least not yet, but I have hope that that could change in time.
Of course if Spider-man: Homecoming, Thor: Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War, Black Panther, Ant-Man and Wasp, Captain Marvel and Guardians of the Galaxy 3 are all awesome then it will continue to make it hard to imagine ever preferring the DCEU over the MCU.

I hope one day the DCEU will at least rise above being Pepsi and ascend to being McDonalds or maybe even Chevrolet. IMHO of course.

[wayfriend]

Don't forget Darkman. Everyone always forgets Darkman. Liam Neeson! Sam Raimi!

Yeah, MCU > DCEU, everyone agrees. Probably DC is just pushing merch for moola, but you have to wonder sometimes, because there is so much that is consistent with their movies, if the dark seriousness is intentional. Maybe there is something we're missing. ... Nah. I think Nolan Batman was successful, and they just don't really know why, so they keep trying to capture the magic again, and they fail.

If they didn't hit a home run with Suicide Squad, they aren't going to. They could have went anywhere with that one, no legacy tying them down. But it was a soft thud.

[aTOMiC]

Heh. I liked Darkman...alot! But its neither DC nor Marvel so I skipped over it.

At the time it was released I liked The Shadow.
I like Mystery Men.
The Incredibles is one of my all time favorite films.
I found a way to like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
I liked the Thomas Jane Punisher film.
I am ambivalent to the Green Lantern film though I know why its hated.
I loved Deadpool.
I liked Unbreakable.
I liked Hellboy.
I liked The Crow.
I liked the Blade films.
I liked Hancock.
I liked The Rocketeer.
I hated the Green Hornet.
I hated The Spirit.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Cast me as the contrarian if you will, but I'm likin' DC more. I find them more impactful whereas Marvel (with some variance) tends towards evanescence.

My 2¢

I also like Nintendo better than Xbox or PS, if that helps explain anything.

[aTOMiC]

I also like Nintendo better than Xbox or PS, if that helps explain anything.

I think this comment may indeed explain things.


Wosbald, I want to feel the same way about the DCEU but with only three movies produced and two of them coming off as incompetent and dumb to me I can't go there.

If the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy were part of the DCEU I might feel differently but Zack Snyder's direction and influence so far has placed the DECU on par with the Michael Bay Transformers series which I watch but have no respect for. If Nolan had written and directed Man of Steel I have no doubt that it would have been the most dramatic and intellectually intriguing superhero films ever made so I'm a little frustrated and disappointed. Snyder captures the aesthetic appearance of good drama but it comes off like he's copying story tellers like Nolan but doesn't really understand what any of it actually means, like a talented cover band. I guess I love the Superman and Batman characters too much to be happy with the kind of superficial film making I've seen so far.

Don't mind me. I'm just too uptight.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I think it is Zack Snyder holding the DCEU back because all of his films wind up looking the same. Not everything needs to look like 300 or Sucker Punch and everyone moved on from the "let's deconstruct our superhero myths" trope more than 10 years ago.

If DC really wanted to get their movies to the next level and be competitive against the MCU they would hire screenplay writers like Stracynzski and hire visual directors like Timur Bekmambetov, who gave us Night Watch, Day Watch, and Wanted.

I suspect that Wonder Woman is going to be a hit but Justice League will be a flop. Don't misunderstand me--JL will actually make money for the studio but if you thought you saw a lot of fan hate for Green Lantern or Daredevil just wait until after opening weekend of JL.

I enjoyed Suicide Squad but in general it failed with the viewing public because 1) they don't really know those characters and 2) the plot was too contrived.

Green Lantern failed not because of the actor but because of the screenplay.

[aTOMiC]

Congrats on your 10k post, Hashi.

I agree about Suicide Squad. I tried to appreciate it for what it was but I wasn't familiar with those characters. Its much easier to notice the flaws in a movie if you aren't obsessing about the lead actress bringing one of your cartoon fantasies to life. Truth be told the way Harley Quinn was portrayed just annoyed me. She can be "vexing" alright.

[wayfriend]

Iron Man 3 was certainly a deconstruction of super hero mythology. Civil War certainly was, too. Nolan Batman, a couple of times. But I admit that one may shove deconstruction down people's throats, or one can hide a pill of it in their ice cream.

Suicide Squad had everything it needed to be glorious, but it fell apart without an adversary that did the movie justice. When the protagonists are villians, the antagonist needs to be chosen more carefully. They needed to want to fight in the end to make a good story ... but they didn't, so no one cared, and so the whole thing flopped.

I loved Ang Lee's Hulk. The heart wants what the heart wants, I guess. Had that movie been made 15 years later, it would have been more well received. But back then, a super hero with unresolved daddy issues didn't fly.

[aTOMiC]

I loved Ang Lee's Hulk. The heart wants what the heart wants, I guess. Had that movie been made 15 years later, it would have been more well received. But back then, a super hero with unresolved daddy issues didn't fly.

When I first watched it I loved HULK too. It wasn't until after a second and third viewing that the nebulously enacted battle of wills between the Banners in the third act seemed unsatisfying. The Hulk isn't an existential character, at least his general appeal does not materialize there. He's a character that is about Smashing stuff. If there is no physical conflict the Hulk ceases to be what we generally want him to be. He CAN be more, and I think Lee was taking a risk going there, but most audiences need a showcase of brute strength to be sold a character that purports to be "the strongest one there is!"

[wayfriend]

I agree, in that one may want to explore what makes Hulk hulk, or one may want to watch Hulk smash. But Bruce deserves a story, too, no?

I loved how Iron Man 3 ended. "I am Iron Man." It was about how Stark was a hero, whether or not he had a cool suit. Since Avengers, Ruffalo Bruce is rather an empty suit. (Excuse the pun, but I saw it there, and I liked it.) Maybe Ragnarok will be his movie. But you can't blame me for wanting to see more of what makes Banner tick.

It all comes down to the delicate balance of spectacle and psychodrama.

But anyway, I also appreciate some of the cinematography in Lee's Hulk. Not the comicky split screen stuff. I am talking about the visuals like Hulk Behind the Tree, or Hulk Fighting Lightning. I enjoy that stuff. MCU doesn't have that level of art, I must admit.

[High Lord Tolkien]

[aTOMiC]

OMG, HLT.

I am talking about the visuals like Hulk Behind the Tree, or Hulk Fighting Lightning. I enjoy that stuff. MCU doesn't have that level of art, I must admit.

I found much of the visuals of Dr. Strange to be quite dazzling and artful, especially in the climax.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Marvel movies are just more fun and entertaining.

I'm a Marvel guy but I love DC too.....the old DC.
This is the Justice League I want to see:



Not just because I love the actors, which I do, but because the characters were clean and good and wholesome.
The special effects were non existent or just plain sucked but it didn't matter.
The 1960's Batman movie is one of my favorite movies of all time. It's entertaining from beginning to end, just perfect.
The Linda Carter Wonder Woman...... so beautiful she's stunning. And she's powerful and has an invisible jet and can calm animals...and has a fantastic opening song. She's Awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_blOQEu9ws
Christopher Reeves' Superman was Superman's Superman......WHO WOULD NOT HAVE KILLED ZOD OR ANYONE!!!!
Man on Steel urinated on Superman. I hope everyone who signed off on it burns in hell.

Nolan's Batman....WTF? What was fun about that? Nothing. Bruce Wayne was boring and I didn't care about anyone except maybe Gordon. I couldn't get past Batman's stupid voice from the very beginning. I know it made a billion dollars but I have no idea why.

Batman vs Superman was ok because I loved all the references to the Dark Night Returns comic from 1986.
But if Wonder Woman wasn't in it I'd say it sucked though.
She was fun, loved her theme music.

Can we get at least 2 Superman movies in a row without Lex Luthor though????? Oh look, Lex is bald now.. who gives a f#ck?

Unless the Legion of Doom is in the Justice League it's going to suck ass big time.
Speaking of, the Super Friends theme song is fantastic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jHj6Y-r57Q

DC on TV is better.
Flash is entertaining (just don't overthink things while watching. lol).
Supergirl is really good.
BECAUSE they are fun characters that you care about.

I want to find whoever did this and give him a medal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qpiO-iRVRk

And Super Cafe is the best thing ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QFPuyDrIIk

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I think many people disliked Ang Lee's Hulk because of the split-screen, looks-like-a-comic-book-on-film shots. I thought it was well done and in retrospect 20 years from now people will point to it as the first time a comic book movie tried to raise itself to the level of "art". Lee is more of a cinematographer than a director.

[wayfriend]

I found much of the visuals of Dr. Strange to be quite dazzling and artful, especially in the climax.

Maybe. (Still haven't seen it yet) But I'm not moved by dazzle [a lot]. But I find I appreciate more and more the simple but evocative.

The Linda Carter Wonder Woman...... so beautiful she's stunning. And she's powerful and has an invisible jet and can calm animals...and has a fantastic opening song. She's Awesome.

Hey, that Lyle Waggoner was a sharp lookin' feller, too!

[aTOMiC]

Maybe. (Still haven't seen it yet)

[dANdeLION]

I think many people disliked Ang Lee's Hulk because of the split-screen, looks-like-a-comic-book-on-film shots. I thought it was well done and in retrospect 20 years from now people will point to it as the first time a comic book movie tried to raise itself to the level of "art". Lee is more of a cinematographer than a director.

I hate it because it sucked. If the film was good, the split screen would have worked.

[Menolly]

Bumping this thread as it seems the closest topic to me asking what y'all think of Marvel Studios announcements regarding Phase 4, and hinting at Phase 5 (unless they extend the timeline of Phase 4) at SDCC? I am not a comic reader, so I have no idea who The Eternals or Shabd-Chi are; do you think the introductory movies will be written in such a way to entice me to see all of the movies to keep up with the interrelated arc?

I originally passed on seeing both Ant Man and Ant Man and the Wasp, but after the end credits in Infinity War, I borrowed the DVDs from the library and got caught up. I'm not planning on subscribing to Disney+, so I hope alternative means for getting those storylines in a timely manner to the theatrical releases will be available.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Phase 4 is their "let's throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" phase. The Eternals? No one cares enough. Shang-Chi? Generic kung film--a little boring at this point. They had wanted to make The Inhumans into a movie, but it wound up being a limited-run TV show...which, quite frankly, sucked.

Blade reboot? I probably would have cast someone else, but as long as they keep it in the same vein (see what I did there?) as the previous movies it could be a sleeper hit.

Black Widow movie? It's about time since they are 7 years late.

They need to go ahead and fold the Fantastic Four franchise into the MCU, though. The other wild speculation--Sentry (who? never heard of him) and Moon Knight (okay, sure, whatever)--is just wild speculation.

Jane Foster as Ms. Thor. Why? Why gender-bend a character? Why not create a new character?

[Menolly]

Well, my understanding is that there is a popular comic book run where Jane Foster did become a female version of Thor, but she paid a physical price for it. How much the MCU is going to rely on that plot line is anyone's guess, though.

I will say with Thor Odinson's current depiction of being depressed and second guessing himself in the MCU, they may be leading to him finding himself not worthy of welding Mjolnir, which would play right in to the storyline in the comics, with a little tweaking.