SRD's first published work?

Post by **tomo** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:40 am

Hi.

I'm referring to Avengers #98, cover date April 1972. On the letters page we have this [with surnames added for clarity]:

"Dear Stan [Lee] and Roy [Thomas]:

In the past two or three years, I have been content to let Marvel struggle with the problem of rendering superheroes attractive to serious audiences in its own way. However, the steady decline of Marvel over the past two years, combined with the forthcoming demise of one of my favourite characters, Goliath, has at last convinced me that what I have to say is important enough to be worth the trouble.

So far, most of the characters and situations in your comics show an admirable understanding on your part of one of the crucial problems of superheroes: they must be both unique and common: that is, they must needs be repetitions of other superheroes, but they must have enough average humanity to be sympathetic characters, characters with whom readers can identify. Giving credit where credit is due, I should say that, in the area of uniqueness, you have not been remiss - whatever else has happened to Marvel, you have not lost your ability to come up with new ideas, imaginative characters, interesting situations. Where you break down is in what you do with those ideas, characters and situations. I feel that you are attacking the problem of making your heroes believable in a way that is different from, and inferior to, the way you have attacked the problem in the past...

My identification with Goliath has been relatively positive. I know that he is rather unintelligent, quick-tempered, crude in a way - but I liked him equally in his Hawkeye days, because he alone of all the Avengers has convinced me that he will never surrender to what he knows is evil. He's not perfect, I'm not perfect: but he has the qualities of a hero, qualities that I can wish I had, and so I identify with him.

Which brings me back to the subject of "decline". Let me try to show you what I mean. The old Goliath was a lousy character. Here's why: he had too much going for him - super-brains, huge strength, and a completely faithful woman. You must have seen how lousy he was, because you tried to spice him up by giving him a "problem" - he kept getting stuck at odd sizes. That was one of the least human problems you ever invented, and in the long run it failed (witness his steady loss of popularity). But - there was a brief while when the old Goliath was the most exciting character around. In epic struggles against Dragon-Man, Hercules (a case of mistaken loyalties), and the Super Adaptoid (AVENGERS #38, 41, 45), he fought harder, showed more determination, and paid a higher price for victory than any other Avenger. For a brief while, he excelled in grit. Now, compare your treatment with the new Goliath. In AVENGERS #41, where Hank Pym is defeated by Dragon-Man, the heroic struggle lasted for SIX pages of dramatic action. Now the new Goliath has "saved the day" twice in the last year; in #75, he was victorious against Arkon in 3 frames occupying only a third of a page; in #86, he beat Brain-Child in 6 frames occupying two-thirds of a page. In all his other action, he has been either defeated immediately, with no struggle, or made a fool of. Is it any wonder that he has become unpopular enough for you to get rid of him? You have totally failed to realise his potential. He is a true fighter; he will never give up - but you, I am sure, will get rid of him in favour of Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, who are two of the dullest characters you have ever created.

Well, I suppose that I could let one character with a lot of courage and a strict sense of duty and justice leave without complaining at such length. But I see that Goliath is a typical case in Marvel today. In two years, you have presented only one sympathetic, heroic desperate battle to the world: The Fantastic Four against the Overmind (well, maybe Thor's fight against the World Beyond counts). Particularly hard hit have been your teams, especially the Avengers. When are you going to realize that the details of an awful struggle won (eventually) the hard way, are what bring readers back to the stories of superheroes? True Confessions I can get somewhere else. Give me a hero that I can sympathise with and respect.

Stephen R. Donaldson, xxx E. Erie St, Kent, Ohio 44240"

The reply is:

"We'll try Steve. Naturally, we can't be expected to agree with most of the points raised concerning a supposed "decline" in Marvel over the past couple of years, but some of your arguments are doubtless well-taken - and some of them are problems we ourselves have been wrestling with off and on. As a matter of fact, it's because we feel the same way about certain things that Hawkeye returned in the last two pages of the very issue of AVENGERS you now hold in your hands - and Roy [Thomas] and Barry [Smith] are hoping to do more with our awesome assemblers (especially Hawkeye, the Vision, and the mutant siblings Pietro and Wanda) than even you could possibly wish for. It'll all take a bit of time, though, since we've got well over half a dozen heroes to inject into each and every story - so bear with us a wee bit longer, huh? We'll be in there trying - honest!"

I'm wondering if Mr D still has his comics collection...

Tom

Post by **danlo** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:52 am

What an amazing tidbit! (Welcome tomo, btw!) SRD a Marvel comic fan! That rocks out the back door! I think I like this Donaldson character after all!

Post by **Dragonlily** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:40 am

Great eye, Tomo. Many thanks for bringing it with you to KW, and for the time it took you to type all that. (oh, for a scanner)

Who agrees with the points of characterization that SRD raises? And did Marvel have the least idea what they were getting???

To the General Discussion moderators, I suggest that this discovery belongs in the RS & Other Works forum

Whistling "Cherish is the word..." as she clears a space for it...

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:20 pm

Nice job, Tomo!! Nothing like making your entrance to the Watch with a BANG!! Welcome!!

And SRD surely can't complain about us getting into too much detail when we discuss TCTC! :LOLS:

Joy, I didn't start reading comics until maybe 9 years after that, so I can't really comment. But Marvel absolutely loves loves loves to do stupid things with their characters. SRD's complaints sound legitimate enough, if minor compared to some things. However, they are also about less obvious problems, meaning he was much more thoughtful and subtle. Very cool!

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:19 pm

We'll have to go walking on that street if we ever do have our Haruchaifest in Ohio.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:58 pm

Holy crap! SRD a comics fan dedicated enough to write a letter to the editor. I'm astonished. In a good way.

Thanks for pointing out this info, tomo. I may have that issue in my collection. I'll check it out .

Post by **dANdeLION** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:03 pm

I've had almost all of those Avengers. The worst thing I ever read was in the earlier issues, and it was Captain America's struggle about whether or not to lead the Avengers or quit them and join S.H.I.E.L.D. It was just so...hokey. That being said, I totally agree that the original Giant-Man was a little too perfect, and I hated Hawkeye becoming a Giant-Man, because his obvious talents lied elsewhere. Still, I think Marvel may have over-done their remaking of Giant-Man in later issues....now he's barely more stable than the Hulk!

It's awesome that SRD read comics, though.

Post by **Baradakas** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:19 am

SRD loves COMICS!!!! YEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!

You made my day Tomo, thanx!

-B

Post by **Earthblood** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:20 pm

That's awesome Tomo!!

And you're right F&F - I don't think he could accuse US of being overly minute in our discussions of a 6 volume fantasy epic after his scathing review of a .....comic book!!!! LOL

That is great - shades of things to come, eh?

Post by **dANdeLION** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:16 pm

Hey! Comic books are a valid form of art! No less than Harlan Ellison and Theodore Sturgeon wrote comic books, and Frank Frazetta used to draw them!

Post by **Baradakas** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:16 am

Absolutely, dAN! That's why they're called "books" everybody, and they are as much an expression of artistic talent as any other form of media. People don't take them as seriously because the required reading level isn't as high....

I still love em though!

-B

Post by **kastenessen** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:06 am

Amazing tomo! I have no relation to Marvel though I love comics, but I loved his harsh review. SRD is so dedicated! Great stuff tomo! Thanks for bringing it to attention(wonder if I can find this edition?)

...and yes this thread belongs to the Reed Stephens and Other works Forum. Maybe it's possible to transfer it there?

kasten

Post by **Dragonlily** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 7:29 pm

Post by **tomo** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 7:26 am

I asked about this on the gradual interview. Part of the reply was -

Actually, I had *two* letters published by Marvel Comics. I remember nothing about the reply to my letter in Avengers #98. But I won a "no-prize" for my letter in Fantastic Four #??

My FF collection goes back only as far as about #275, years later than the Avengers letter. Anyone have FF going back to (about) 1970 who's willing to trawl through to find the other letter?

Tom

Post by **aTOMiC** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:51 am

tomo, there is a chance I may have SRDs Avengers and FF letters in my collection. That would be FF #94 (jan) - #105 or so. I know I don't have an unbroken run in that year but we'll see if I get lucky.

Post by **dANdeLION** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:38 am

Dang it, I had those FF until(and that Avengers) about 2 years ago when I sold everything up to about #150 (to buy my house). If I knew the exact issue, I could replace it, but I don't know if I want to go out and buy all 13 that came out in '70 (they were published every 4 weeks back then). Are we sure that it was a '70 issue?

Post by **tomo** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:31 pm

1970 was a guess as to the earliest that it could have been. Even SRD doesn't remember the issue number, but the two question marks could mean that it was in the double digits.

I think that I'll pop into my local comic shop and scour the back issues, but I don't hold out much hope for them having many early FF.

Tom

Post by **Dragonlily** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:23 pm

bumped for Edge

Post by **Edge** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:11 pm

Thank you, Dragonlily! AWESOME thread!

Can I suggest a reward in white-golds for the first KW'er to find that FF letter? I really want to see it!

Post by **Dragonlily** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:23 pm

Sure, good idea. WGD reward for the finder of the Fantastic Four letter, also one for Edge for finding SRD's Erickson intro.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

SRD's first published work?

SRD's first published work?