Technology and the Land

[Lady Genni]

Ok here is something I haven't quite been able to figure out...

In the Land we have Earthpower, we have stone implements, we have wooden implements, and we have horses, boats, clingor, etc. We have fire although it is not used by the people of the land there is reference to it being used.

So with all of this how come we don't have something as basic as a wheel? Not a cart in sight. They have doors but no hinges?

How is it that they don't even use the most basic technology? Is it to show how dependant on the earthpower they are? How about before Berek discovered Earthpower? There was a kingdom with a king and queen...didn't they have any technology? If there was a war wouldn't they need a smith to forge wepons? Did the Land move away from technology when the Earthpower was discovered? Does the Oath of Peace restrain them in some way?

And last but not least ... is this SRD's comentary on the ills of technology and it being the downfall of "Western Civilization?" Could it be the pivotal distinction between the Land and the real world?

Sorry for all of the questions but this has been bugging me for awhile...any thoughts?????

[Lord Mhoram]

Oh my God. I never thought about wheels in the Land. They didnt have them, did they?

[KaosArcana]

It's kind of hard to figure out where technology stands in the Land.

They have worked metal ... because the Lords have metal ends on
their staffs and the Warward uses metal armor and weapons. What
we don't know is where they got that metal ... do they have miners
or can Loremasters call the ore out of the Earth? Does it have to be
smelted or is it shaped by Earthpower? Is that a function of the
Gravelingas?

I think the wheel wasn't in use in the Land because it wasn't
really needed. There really doesn't seem to be any kind
of mass transportation of goods or services throughout the
Land. I don't recall any roads being mentioned at all in the
first chronicles. If you don't have a road or trade, a wheeled
vehicle is going to be more trouble than its worth.

Here are some of the things that I don't know about the Land.
I don't know if Donaldson didn't mention them, or I simply have
forgotten them.

1. The Stonedowners seem to be primarily an agrarian society.
Triock is a Cattle Herder. Atirian seems to be the village
healer. Trell is a Gravelingas who provides heat and light.
Lena mentions a Craftsmaster, but I'm not sure what he
does ... the Stonedowners are wearing clothes not furs,
so presumably they know how to spin and weave. (Unless
that's what the Woodhelvinin do.) They carry stone knives
and don't seem to use wood of any kind.

2. The Woodhelvinin (sp?) live exclusively in trees. I can't
imagine them growing crops or raising animals there, so
do they live exclusively on nuts and berries? They also
seem to use wood exclusively.

3. The only law (small L) in the Land is the Council of Lords,
but we never see them do any kind of governing. IS there
any kind of law in the Land? Is there taxation? There doesn't
seem to be money, and there isn't trade-- so it's like the
Stonedowns and Woodhelvins are independent city states ...
who provides the food and materials for the Loresaat and
Revelstone? What exactly do the Lords do when they're not
fighting the machinations of Lord Foul the Despiser?

4. There's meat in the land ... and isn't clingor described as being
some kind of hide? Does anyone else find it odd that the people
of the Land kill animals for food? I mean, that seems to go against
the Oath of Peace to me ...

[Dag son of Dag]

Lady Genni, maybe fire is regarded as something evil? After all, it was fire (and axe) that maimed the One Forest. But on the other hand, the Loreless peoples of the land, like Plainsmen and Haruchai probably use fire to an extent. But since wood is rare in supply (anyone stupid enough to go about cutting wood would probably be stopped by the Lords, who are sworn to protect the forests. And if you go woodcutting in Garroting Deep, the forest takes care of the problem itself).

KaosArcane, roads are in fact mentioned in the first chronicles. In the Illearth War, the Warward travels on a road for a while, immidiately after leaving Revelstone, and High Lord Elena and her party use a road at least parts of the way to Revelwood. If there were no carts or wagons, maybe this was merely a path frequently used by riders?

1,2. Good point about the Woodhelvennin seemingly not having any crops or herds. In Lord Foul`s Bane, TC is a guest at the Hirebrand at Soaring Woodhelven. There he eats a meal (as far as I can recall) consisting of cheese, bread and grapes. This seems to indicate that the Woodhelvennin do trade with people who make these things. Maybe they trade things like wooden tools in return for it.
About the Stonedownors not using wood: In TIW, Lord Mhoram gives a piece of High Wood to Triock son of Thuler (after having used it to contact Callindrill), and Triock says that he`ll find a use for it. But then again, Triock has trained at the Loresraat, so maybe he`s an exception.

3. No, the Lords don`t seem to do any governing. But I think that they have the power to do that, should they wish so. I think High Lord Prothall says something like "My will commands" as part of the litany of the High Lords ("I am Prothal son of Dwillian, High Lord by the choice of the Council of Revelstone. My will commands." Or something in the lines of this, at any rate). Taxation..probably not. The people of the Land give gifts to the Lord (which are placed in the Hall of Gifts) and the people in the villages around Revelstone produce food for them. Plus: people serve in the Warward. But all this seems to be voluntarily. There are no laws, no taxation, and no government because it`s not necessary: The different peoples of the Land help each other as best they can, without being forced to do that. A very mature society in that respect.
When the Lords are not fighting Lord Foul, they prepare to fight him. And they: teach the children (Lord Amatin in TIW), work on the Wards of Kevin`s Lore (I think), heal the Land (Trothgard) and do various other things.

4. Maybe they only kill evil animals, like kresh and the like? Maybe they use the hides of dead horses? And the Stonedownors were cattleherders. Eating cows, I don`t think that`s against the Oath of Peace as long as one doesn`t kill them just to kill. In a way, eating them helps the Land by giving the people strength to serve the Land.

[Lady Genni]

My thoughts on the wheel stem more from wondering why they don't cart things vs carrying them. Like the march of the Warward in TIW - they had to carry their supplies in packs. You would think Troy would put the wheel to some use unless he didn't think of it because he was blind and had never seen one, yet he knows shapes...hmmm? I don't get it.

I had also thought of the cloth issue but forgot to bring it up. I can't help but think that they would need a loom (?) to weave fabric. Those are pretty big "machines" and I don't see them using stone for that.

I always thought of the Woodhelvinnin having crops that they tended and hunting for their meat. But if they have cheese then they would have to have some livestock or they would be trading with someone...who? Stonedowners? - If there was trade wouldn't there be trade routes? Roads and thus wheels to cart supplies back and forth?

I think it's great that everyone is so nice and wonderful that they don't need government or taxation..but seems a little too idealic don't you think? Is SRD trying to establish a Utopia sort of atmosphere or did he just not take the time to elaborate on how this land functions? I'm starting to see why TC has a hard time believing in this place...when you look at it in these terms it does seem unbelieveable.

[amanibhavam]

I seem to recall there were carts mentioned at the siege of Revelstone when the waynhim attacked Satansfist's army

[AMOK]

I recently took an engineering materials course in college and found out that white gold is actually a solid solution (metal alloy) containing a large percentage of gold, and smaller percentages of silver, copper, nickel, zinc, and palladium - which are added to strengthen gold. Each of these minerals are considered "rare earth" (not plentiful-but there is some dog gone it!) It is very easy to make gold appear white in color by melting gold silver and nickel and mixing it up then letting it cool. Bronze and Brass are both copper alloys (with zinc and nickel mixed in.)

Anyway - argggh! IF THE FOLKS IN THE LAND COULD MAKE STUFF OUT OF BRASS AND BRONZE THEY COULD ALSO MAKE STUFF WITH GOLD AND SILVER AND NICKEL!! They could have had enough white gold to stir up some real... stuff! If not them, then Kaseryn could have.

Drat that pesky knowledge...

[Dag]

Lady Genni, I think SRD deliberately chose to make the Land so idyllic. I suppose he wanted us to really sympathize for the people there, and to realize why it`s so important to fight for it. And set up a contrast against Despite.

[Lord Mhoram]

Well, I dont think techonology in the Land was really important. It doesnt even matter.

[Lady Genni]

Hmm... the importance of technology in the land? I wasn't really considering it in that sense.

I think for me it was more of a dividing line between how "our" world functions vs how the Land functions. We rely heavily on technology and have a soulless society where as the Land is all heart and soul but has very little dependency on technology. They have the Earthpower. They serve the Land were as we "rape" it. Take what we can and spoil the rest.

It's been discussed before (although I don't recall all that's been said) the connection between the Land and the Real world. In LFB the note the begger gives to TC talks about how if the land is destroyed then our "real" world will fail because it doesn't have the heart to resist Despite - totally paraphrasing here...I could be wrong in my interpretation, but that was the gist of what I thought I read.

Just wondering if the issue of technology was another social commentary that SRD was throwing into the story and what everyone else thought of it.

[Lord Mhoram]

Again, I dont think drawing lines between "our" and "their" world really matters. Theyre two totally different ones, and again its a fantasy; one w/almost no parallels.

[Vain]

It may not be realistic to draw parallels between the worlds but I suppose it is interesting to ponder if SRD intentionally left out so much or whether it was by accident.

I would like to know what the population of the Land was - some demographics would be cool

[Guest]

There's quite a bit of stuff Donaldson hasn't or didn't tell us about the Land. He seems to be a writer who doesn't tell us anything unless he considers it to be very important (can you just imagine how long the Chronicles would be if written by an author who puts in a lot of details, like Robert Jordan?) . Just because he doesn't specifically tell us, for instance, that the Woodhelvin have crops and herds, doesn't mean that they don't have them. They quite likely do. Soaring Woodhelvin, for example, doesn't seem to have many nearby neighbors to trade food goods with. I firmly believe that they raise their own, but it wasn't important to the plot, so Donaldson didn't include it. Since sliceable loaves of bread seem universal throughout the Land, and we don't see people out grinding grain for hours, they probably also have some sort of gristmill technology. And they obviously have the ability to make cloth, so must be able to process wool or plant fibers. Again, not important for the plot, so not included. The Land does have a technology, or lore, of sorts that is so different from ours it seems like magic. Take the use of gildenwood in boats and ships, that allows the user to guide the boat using inner power rather than an outboard motor. Or a gravelingas using his or her power to repair a broken earthenware pot. These things are taken for granted in the Land, but seem magical to us because we don't have technology/lore like them -- just as my computer, cell phone, satelite television, and Nintendo Gamecube would seem to be magical in the Land, as they don't share in our technology. As for governance, it seems in Lord Foul's Bane that all governance, at least in the outer areas, is local. No one in Mithil Stonedown or Soaring Woodhelvin even knows the name of the High Lord, for example. Perhaps this is because the Lords were so few in number, or there hadn't been a "nationwide" crisis for so long? In the Illearth War and The Power That Preserves, people know who the Lords are, but I still got the idea that most local problems are still handled locally. The Lords are a power of the last resort. maybe because Revelstone is some 900 miles from Mithil Stonedown? And even further from other places? I also believe that Donaldson made the Land as a beautiful Ideal. Who wouldn't want to go there and walk through Andelain?

[KaosArcana]

Um, I'm going to have to admit that I probably wouldn't enjoy
an extended sojourn in the Land. It's not because I
find the place all that scary or anything-- though with
my luck I'd be ur-vile bait as soon as I opened my eyes
-- it's just that there are things that I would miss after a
while:

1. Plumbing. Hot and cold running water. Toilets. Daily
showers.

2. Caffine ... unless Hurtloam cures that addiction.

3. Chocolate.


I've never been big on camping ... and how many people
who are fond of camping would feel comfortable bedding
down knowing that a Cavewright or kriesh might show up
to chomp on you?

[Hile Troy]

Please remember technological growth and advancement is in close relationship with the convergence of cultures and peoples! Exchanging and trading ideas! Examples found in our history are literally unfathomable!

In the Land, there is not much technological convergence. Plus the Land has natural laws and cultures that are completely alien to Earth. Who wants to rape the land for raw materials, isn't that the crime that the kings and queens before and during Berek's time are guilty of? What about the Ravers while they were mortal beings?

[Guest]

Kaos Arcana has a point. I love to go camping, but I would miss that most modern of all luxuries -- toilet paper.

[matrixman]

Well, before we write off the people of The Land as technologically backward, hopeless country bumpkins, let's remember good ol' Kevin's Ritual of Desecration. That apocalyptic event basically "reset" human progress in The Land, didn't it? Perhaps earlier The Land did have great roads and superstructures, but then the Desecration obliterated them all, so the returning peoples had to start from square one. Well, almost: at least Revelstone survived the destruction. At the time of Covenant's appearance in The Land, the people were still dealing with the consequences of the Desecration. Survival and shelter first, then we'll get to the fancy roads and 24-hour Damelon's Donuts stores. Yes, there's technological progress for you.

[Damelon]

Survival and shelter first, then we'll get to the fancy roads and 24-hour Damelon's Donuts stores.

[Gil galad]

nobody wants to start mass producing anything technical because they can forsee what implications it will have on the land in the long term.

[SleeplessOne]

this is an interesting topic, one that I've been wondering about for a while ..
Did Foul's army have wheels in TIW ?
Someone else mentioned the carts that the Waynhim destroyed in 'Lord Mhorams Victory', they also had the catapaults, surely they would have been a bitch to drag (although Foul's army was big enough to do so, and its not like Satansfist would have been too concerned with their backs ..)

also, what's the story with the written word in the Land ? Apart from the occasional mention of 'runes' there doesnt seem to be a whole lot of reading or writing going on .. which is somewhat ironic seeing as TC (and indeed SRD himself) is an author .. If there's no written language in the Land, how did all those old songs and tales get passed along after the RoD ? I s'pose the returning Giants of the Land could have passed on most of the songs/stories by word of mouth .. but is the knowledge taught at the Loresraat wholly passed on by word-of-mouth ?
Any insights anyone ? *shrugs*